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Topic:
ROTS Chapter 41: Yoda vs. Sidious DISCUSSION
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HookLineAndSinker
Title:
Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
6/18/06 3:37am
Subject:
RE: ROTS Chapter 41: Yoda vs. Sidious DISCUSSION
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I'm not sure I agree with this.
Remember, back in TPM, Obi Wan takes a significant fall, and finds the strength to leap back into the action, apparently unharmed. There is precedent. Further, if Yoda actually sustained an injury and we were shown this, it would detract from the symbolic qualities of Yoda's fall and escape. On the other hand, however, I am sure it would placate those who felt Yoda should have continued fighting, and feel that his retreat was arbitrary and felt like something that the plot demanded.
Obi-Wan falling never sat well with me either. He should have had a few broken ribs or something. 
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anidanami124
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
6/18/06 6:56pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS Chapter 41: Yoda vs. Sidious DISCUSSION
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I really enjoyed Yoda vs Sidious two of the most powerful Force users fighting it out for the fate of the galaxy yet it ends up in a draw. Which is why I feel that Yoda went into hidding because he saw that from that fight they need more then what they had to stop Palpatine.
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qui_gonbear
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
6/18/06 8:13pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS Chapter 41: Yoda vs. Sidious DISCUSSION
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G-FETT posted:
...I love the way Yoda's cloak glides down and lands on the floor with him. Theres something so elegant about the way it glides downwards - It reminds me of Obi-Wan's empty cloak after Vader has struck him down....
All in all an amazing chapter. Wonderfully epic and action packed. Fantastic stuff. This is what Star Wars is all about. Star Wars at its very, very best.
Great observation, G-Fett! That istruly another fantasic connection to the OT. I'm also right there with you on your dismay over critics just not getting what an effective visual artist Lucas is with these movies. One can only hope time is a little kinder to the prequels in terms of the respect as great films they are.
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princessleia911
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
6/18/06 9:33pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS Chapter 41: Yoda vs. Sidious DISCUSSION
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G-FETT posted:
Wonderful chapter. We heard back in 1999 that Duel of the Fates would be reprised for the final movie, but I had no idea they would use it so effectively. And honestly, when we first saw The Senate in The Phantom Menace, who would have had any idea that this would be the setting for THE ultimate battle between good and evil? I love that this epic battle between good and evil is conducted in this huge chamber, right at the very center of intergalactic politics - Indeed the concept that The Emperor is trashing democracy itself, as he throws those pods around casually, cannot be lost on the viewer. But what really astounds me where does George get all these ideas from? Who else could have thought of setting this battle at the heart of democracy and all the visual symbols and metaphores that would come from this? He is truely THE visionary storyteller of our generation! But why the hell do the critics refuse to see this?
As the chapter begins we find The Emperor throwing pods at Yoda, and Yoda flying gracefully from one pod to another. Duel of the Fates gives the confrontation that grandest feeling to the whole sequence - A true epic! I just LOVE the moment when The Emperor sends a pod flying towards Yoda and Yoda stops it in its tracks and throws it back again! WONDERFUL! Ian Mcdairmid is amazing in these scenes, IMO. I know a lot of people think he was too over the top, but I personally think he plays these scene's just right. This is The Emperor that was saw in 1983. Evil. Insane. Becoming drunk on power.
Then quickly we reach the conclussion of the battle. The Emperor and Yoda finish up in the same pod. The Emperor blast's lightning at Yoda, Yoda blocks it and fires it back, at this exact moment Duel of the Fates also reaches it peak, indicating that we have reached a crunch moment in this battle. The energy created by the lightning builds up until it explodes, pushing both Yoda and The Emperor over the edge of the pod. Yoda tries to cling on and then falls to the floor. The battle is over.
ILM did an amazing job of depicting Yoda during this whole sequence. I thought the way he was portrayed in the duel with Count Dooku was excellent, but this battle really does take Yoda to the ultimate level of realism. Every single expression and look is 100% believable and realistic.
I love the way Yoda's cloak glides down and lands on the floor with him. Theres something so elegant about the way it glides downwards - It reminds me of Obi-Wan's empty cloak after Vader has struck him down....
All in all an amazing chapter. Wonderfully epic and action packed. Fantastic stuff. This is what Star Wars is all about. Star Wars at its very, very best.
I agree, G-FETT  In terms of the critics, the only thing I think is that Lucas is always pushing the envelope technically speaking and he is often criticized about his wooden dialogue that they forget to see the true splendor of his work. Most people don't understand true genius and that is why it is genius, because no one has thought of that before or expressed it in that way. And I think critics hear "Star Wars" and think that it is not worth of recognition. Hollywood seems to be in an artsy slump as of late(in terms of what movies win awards). I think many are jealous because of his success but he saw promise (i.e. licensing of toys & other items) where & when other saw nothing.
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Veloz
Registered:
Aug '04
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Date Posted:
6/19/06 10:36am
Subject:
RE: ROTS Chapter 41: Yoda vs. Sidious DISCUSSION
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I love this chapter! 
We get to see a very happy Palpatine on a high, enjoying his triumpth over the jedi, and Yoda just trying to take control of the situation. I loved the pod throwing and for some reason i just find myself almost cheering every time i see this chapter.
I must agree with those of u who said that this is a very symbolic scene, cause Palpatine is literally destroying the Senate, wich of course we already know he has done by declaring himself Emperor and will officially do by the time ANH comes around.
One of the things that simply makes this chaper amazing for me: Duel of the Fates. To me this is the best piece of music that comes out of the prequels, and i was SOOO thrilled to hear it again on this chapter. It just fits perfectly with the battle against light and dark and the urgency of the situation. 
Of course, when Palpatine and Yoda end up in the same pod and Palps throw sith lightning at him, i LOVE when u can see Yoda slowly give ground, and suddenly we see his resolve and just smacks it all back at him.. simply brilliant!
When Yoda falls i couldnt help but think of the line from TPM "I dont care what universe u come from, that's gotta hurt" 
Overall, a fantastic chapter in wich Ian once again does a remarkable job and the ILM ppl just made Yoda look awesome and oh so very real.
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That_Wascally_Droid
Registered:
Jul '01
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Date Posted:
6/19/06 1:01pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS Chapter 41: Yoda vs. Sidious DISCUSSION
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Well I'm coming in terribly late on this one.
I really loved this chapter. I love the angles when Palpatine chucks the pods, the sound as they whoosh around, and the sound as they crash. A really good solid crash.
Yoda's animations are amazing.
I like the shot of his saber flying away.
I love the look on Palpatine's face during the lighting tug-o-war.
Everything else has pretty much been said! lol
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Darth_Zoo
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
6/19/06 11:37pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS Chapter 41: Yoda vs. Sidious DISCUSSION
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Fun and thrilling chapter. I do like Sidious' expressions becuase I'm in the pro-camp Sidious um' camp. The pod crashing is very meorable. The scene was really well designed, directed, and animated. There is a lot of imgainations and it comes across wonderfully. Very enjoyable to watch.
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dvader234
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
6/21/06 1:18pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS Chapter 41: Yoda vs. Sidious DISCUSSION
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Darth_Zoo posted:
Fun and thrilling chapter. I do like Sidious' expressions becuase I'm in the pro-camp Sidious um' camp. The pod crashing is very meorable. The scene was really well designed, directed, and animated. There is a lot of imgainations and it comes across wonderfully. Very enjoyable to watch.
I don't know if it's been mentioned, but Spielberg had a hand in the scene's direction.
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jedibri
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
6/21/06 1:46pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS Chapter 41: Yoda vs. Sidious DISCUSSION
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This is my second favorite scene's of the whole PT. It is breathtaking. It's everything that duel should be.
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Yodas-evil-twin
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
6/21/06 3:17pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS Chapter 41: Yoda vs. Sidious DISCUSSION
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Really, really, great chapter. I find it to be one of the must see parts of ROTS. I particuarly love the senate pod sequence.
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Saberist
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
6/21/06 4:20pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS Chapter 41: Yoda vs. Sidious DISCUSSION
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Baah,
The Senate Fight positively reeks of ESB. Same color modes, same 'fall from great height' motif. _Utterly Dull_ fighting.
You need to ratchet things up a notch to make this fight BIGGER THAN what Dooku and Yoda had done.
One obvious thing being to simply 'forget the fall' as Yoda did what Mace tried to which was levitate while fighting in midair.
Another is to abandon the notion of Yoda as a swordsman, because nobody that short really is ever gonna match the reach or swing force of a taller being. These two should fight as pure Force Mages or with levitating sabers or or or. But not as Mustafar was done.
Finally, we should see Palpatine, 'not as who he really is' but who HE WILL NEVER BE SEEN TO BE. A giant of flowing dark power (6-8ft tall?) A wraith so consumed by the Dark Side that he can literally 'shroud' a hall as great as the senate in total darkness in which a Master Jedi's saber light was even swallowed. This was also the point to introduce the clone-of-a-clone theory as Yoda 'got one but got skewered by another' and another and another.
The combination of the above being an excellent justification for Yoda to retire from the field. Because the surrounding darkness would imply that if Yoda dies, his 'Beacon' will be absorbed by the darkness, rendering it that much more powerful. While also providing a 'rear guard' potential for a Ride Of The Light Brigade to destroy the cloning facilities in whatever inter-war series Lucas dreamed up next (Palpatine can't reclone himself if his 1,000 year old first-corpse is lost because all the clones are fatally flawed, on purpose...).
As is, Yoda's flight doesn't look like a tactical retreat, it appears (especially in hte novelization) as headlong terror and without due consideration for the fate of the galaxy which must otherwise persist in fighting a civil war without ANY Jedi.
There is no doubt in my mind that Yoda and Obiwan could take Palpatine, as shown. There is no doubt in my mind that Yoda could whoop Anakin up oneside and down the other, especially once crippled.
But only if they stay in the game. The Twins, while a debt of honor needing repayment in kind, are NOTHING compared to the ongoing civil insurrection and the BILLIONS of beings who will die under the boot of Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine.
Especially given the pair's early penetration of the Jedi Temple and easy recovery of the datalogs there, it seems to me that propoganda vs. propoganda, the dead children vs. the living old freakazoid would have favored a continuing battle against the Risen Empire rather than pinning all hopes on two kids whose unknown degree of gift and _lack of early training_ are seemingly symptomatic of what was wrong with Anakin's own failed teaching.
In the end, I don't think I will ever forgive Mr. Lucas for failing to make the Jedi _strong_ characters so that their FALL could be more interesting. And I think that the ultimate way to get there was through clone-on-original fighting between elite beings leaving only the little people to come out of the fire after everything was worn down to nothing through a literally fratricidal exchange.
Such exploitation of a weakness seems much more inline with the presented Sith mandate of turning one's opponent's actions upon themselves and "Where two lions fight over the same kill, only the vultures feed well..." inheriting what was left.
KPl.
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MASTER_DOODOO
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
6/21/06 6:19pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS Chapter 41: Yoda vs. Sidious DISCUSSION
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I love the dexterity Yoda shows when dodging the pods. Makes him look like the true Jedi Master. That's one thing that bummed me out about the PT. They made Yoda out to look like a fool in that one of his padawans joined the darkside and in that he could never tell what was going on. "Hard to see", "The dark side clouds everything", "Clouded his future is", etc. The little guy is a badass. Not a whiny chicken. So when Yoda starts to deal out the goods at the end of AOTC and all throughout ROTS, I was stoked.
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farrellg
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
6/21/06 7:35pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS Chapter 41: Yoda vs. Sidious DISCUSSION
- Date Edited:
6/21/06 7:36pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
farrellg
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There is no doubt in my mind that Yoda and Obiwan could take Palpatine, as shown.
I don't think this is true. Dooku lost to Obi-Wan, but was able to easily knock out Obi-Wan while fighting Anakin at the same time. If Dooku can defeat Obi-Wan that easily, then Dooku's Master (the Emperor) could do so even more easily. In a two on one fight, the Emperor would effortlessly defeat Obi-Wan. Yoda would be forced to face the Emperor on his own. That's why Yoda realized that it was futile to have Obi-Wan face Sidious. Kenobi simply wasn't "strong enough".
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ANAKINSKYWEEZER
Registered:
Feb '03
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Date Posted:
6/21/06 8:14pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS Chapter 41: Yoda vs. Sidious DISCUSSION
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Saberist, your posts always appear to be interesting, yet very difficult to understand. 
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darthvaderv
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
6/22/06 5:00am
Subject:
RE: ROTS Chapter 41: Yoda vs. Sidious DISCUSSION
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farrellg posted:
There is no doubt in my mind that Yoda and Obiwan could take Palpatine, as shown.
I don't think this is true. Dooku lost to Obi-Wan, but was able to easily knock out Obi-Wan while fighting Anakin at the same time. If Dooku can defeat Obi-Wan that easily, then Dooku's Master (the Emperor) could do so even more easily. In a two on one fight, the Emperor would effortlessly defeat Obi-Wan. Yoda would be forced to face the Emperor on his own. That's why Yoda realized that it was futile to have Obi-Wan face Sidious. Kenobi simply wasn't "strong enough".
I agree that Obi-Wan would definately be defeated. However IMO Sidious would lose if he faced both of them. It's not guaranteed but Sidious was lucky to be inside the pod against Yoda. Only reason he won that duel and Obi-Wan may contribute towards Sidious's attention. Afterall this is not Anakin and Obi vs Sidious.
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