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Topic:
Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
3/10 10:08am
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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Yep, I think Lucas intended for Vader to be on par with the Emperor, but it doesn't come across in the film.
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"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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LordVader66
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
3/10 11:23am
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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Rossa83 posted:
LodVader66: so then Yoda is that much more powerful than Sideous? 
Yoda gets points for blocking Force Lightning. No one else is shown doing that in the films.
Isosceles posted:
Going by what was shown in the movie, I say it looks like Anakin is straining some too. It does not show Anakin as extremely more powerful then Obi-wan. I agree with some of the other, it shows them to be about equal (but then again, that is they way I look at the whole duel..them being about equal).
I just don't really see anything in the movie that shows that Anakin was equal to the Emperor in power, let alone way more powerful than Obi-wan. I believe the misconception comes from thier 2 very different fighting styles. Anakin is more aggressive when fighting, while Obi-wan is more defensive (as someone said earlier).
Anakin Skywalker:
Best pilot in the galaxy
Destroyed Dooku on the Invisible Hand
Longest Force Jump in the history of the saga on Mustafar
Engaged 3 Jedi at once in the Temple, including Cin Drallig, killing all 3
Hero of the Clone Wars
While Mace and Yoda were on Coruscant, they recalled Skywalker from the Outer Rim (!) to rescue the Chancellor
Obiwan was the best matchup for Anakin because he knew his fighting style, he trained him, in his own words "I have taught you everything I know". Kenobi knew Anakin like the back of his hand. But Vader appears mostly in control of the duel. Kenobi hung tough but Vader was going to kill him on the moving platform. Vader wasn't even tired. Kenobi looked exhausted, breathing through his mouth. When Anakin jumped on, Kenobi had to jump off because he didn't stand a chance on the platform. He simply walked into a stragetic advantage. Vader thought he had enough power to compensate (which I'll go to my grave beliving he did).
Master_Starwalker posted:
Yep, I think Lucas intended for Vader to be on par with the Emperor, but it doesn't come across in the film.
I don't know about that. I think Lucas had a fine line to walk, because he needed to show Anakin as the most powerful Jedi (which he did)and also show that it was believable that Kenobi could take him out. That's a tough line to walk. I think he wanted to show Anakin below the Emperor but very soon rivaling his power.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
3/10 11:28am
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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But he didn't show Anakin as the most powerful Jedi. Mace and Yoda come across as more powerful than he does.
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"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
3/10 12:28pm
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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And that's why we call it below the Emperor.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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Isosceles
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
3/10 1:22pm
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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Anakin Skywalker:
Best pilot in the galaxy
Destroyed Dooku on the Invisible Hand
Longest Force Jump in the history of the saga on Mustafar
Engaged 3 Jedi at once in the Temple, including Cin Drallig, killing all 3
Hero of the Clone Wars
While Mace and Yoda were on Coruscant, they recalled Skywalker from the Outer Rim (!) to rescue the Chancellor
I'll just bold mine since I messed the quotes up. The last 2 don't really count as Obi-wan is right there with him in both categories. I also don't necessarily think that him being a great pilot (even #1) proves he was a powerful Jedi, but i will give that is doesn't hurt. Dooku is a good example though (at least in showing Anakin being better in something than Obi-wan) so I do stand corrected. Force Jumps don't really count though...I mean it is a nice feat, but who is to say that other Jedi can't do the same. We see so little, where a force jump of that distance is necessary. Just not enough evidence either way.
Obiwan was the best matchup for Anakin because he knew his fighting style, he trained him, in his own words "I have taught you everything I know". Kenobi knew Anakin like the back of his hand. But Vader appears mostly in control of the duel. Kenobi hung tough but Vader was going to kill him on the moving platform. Vader wasn't even tired. Kenobi looked exhausted, breathing through his mouth. When Anakin jumped on, Kenobi had to jump off because he didn't stand a chance on the platform. He simply walked into a stragetic advantage. Vader thought he had enough power to compensate (which I'll go to my grave beliving he did).
Yeah, I'm not saying Anakin isn't more powerful than Obi-wan, but Lucas did a bad job of showing Anakin as more powerful. I really took everything that Anakin said (after he turned) as boasting. He definately wasn't shown on Palpatine's level or Mace's or Yoda's.
I don't know about that. I think Lucas had a fine line to walk, because he needed to show Anakin as the most powerful Jedi (which he did)and also show that it was believable that Kenobi could take him out. That's a tough line to walk. I think he wanted to show Anakin below the Emperor but very soon rivaling his power.
Yeah, I can understand that fine line, but again (IMO) he didn't come close to showing Anakin in Emporer range. I mean he had trouble blocking Kenobi's force push (and him getting thrown shows me he wasn't in control of any part of that force power fight), what's he going to do when Palp's starts hurling lightning or senate chairs at him? He's no Yoda.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
3/10 3:18pm
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
- Date Edited:
3/10 3:45pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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I'm not sure if Lucas really wanted to show Anakin as "the most powerful Jedi". For example, in Shatterpoint, he refers to Anakin only as the Order's most promising apprentice. And that's not too long before ROTS. Having the potential to be the most powerful Jedi... that's different.
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AnakinSucks
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
3/10 3:46pm
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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It is all down to the Dooku factor I believe (a character that I adore btw).
He puts things out of sink because he is so very powerful.
Beating fighters is one thing, but Dooku appeared invincible next to Kenobi.
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Isosceles
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
3/11 8:05am
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
I'm not sure if Lucas really wanted to show Anakin as "the most powerful Jedi". For example, in Shatterpoint, he refers to Anakin only as the Order's most promising apprentice. And that's not too long before ROTS. Having the potential to be the most powerful Jedi... that's different.
exactly
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What really irritates me are all the close-minded people who actually believe that they are in fact open minded. -- J.B.
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LordVader66
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
3/11 11:15am
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
I'm not sure if Lucas really wanted to show Anakin as "the most powerful Jedi". For example, in Shatterpoint, he refers to Anakin only as the Order's most promising apprentice. And that's not too long before ROTS. Having the potential to be the most powerful Jedi... that's different.
Well I don't know how much an eu novel reflects George Lucas's thinking. Did he personally read the book line by line as he did with the RotS novel? I don't think so. And in the RotS novel, (which he personally approved of) Mace Windu calls Anakin Skywalker the most powerful Jedi who is still getting stronger by the day.
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zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
3/11 11:17am
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
I'm not sure if Lucas really wanted to show Anakin as "the most powerful Jedi". For example, in Shatterpoint, he refers to Anakin only as the Order's most promising apprentice. And that's not too long before ROTS. Having the potential to be the most powerful Jedi... that's different.
I agree. I think the distinction is that Anakin regarded himself as the most powerful Jedi ever, but that he actually wasn't. Maybe he could have been in time, he certainly had the potential with his great skill, Chosen One status, and record-breaking midichlorian count, but his technique and spiritual connection was so clouded by emotional confusion that Obi Wan Kenobi was even able to beat him.
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I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
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DarthGimpy
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
3/21 7:21pm
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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I don't think Obi-Wan was focused on anything except the moment. He was not being mindful of the future at the expense of the present, but was being mindful of the Living Force, as Qui-Gon told him at the beginning of TPM. So the future, the outcome of the battle was not really part of the thought process; the only issue was doing what he must.
Interestingly, Padme seems to think that Obi-Wan will beat Anakin:
She doesn't say:
"You're going to attack him, aren't you?
or
"You're going to try to kill him, aren't you?
or
"You're going to fight him, aren't you?"
She says:
"You're going to kill him, aren't you?"
I wonder why that is? Surely during the 2-3 years of their marriage, Anakin has found time to brag plenty enough to her about being the strongest Jedi of them all, blah blah. Yet she seems to see that Obi-Wan will beat him. I kind of like that, but it's curious that she'd see it that way.
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DARTHLINK
Registered:
Feb '05
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Date Posted:
3/23 4:58pm
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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She knew that Jedi killed Siths, so if her husband became a Sith and Obi-Wan (A Jedi) wanted to find him, then it only meant one thing:
Obi-Wan was going to kill Anakin (Now Darth Vader).
Obi wasn't exactly going to go to Mustafar to have tea and biscuits with his now evil apprentince.
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LemmingLord
Title: PT Manager & CLUE Host
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
3/23 5:23pm
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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I think it is like ROTJ - Obiwan had to confront Vader and be willing to kill him. It didn't matter if he succeeded. It had to be done. The question of the outcome was not important.
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LemmingLord
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
3/25 4:48am
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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I think Lemminglord is onto something. Yoda didn't necessarily know that he was going to overpower Sideous. He already knew, or believed, that Sideous had killed Mace - so he knew he was no slouch. Yoda also knew Anakin and OBW. He knew their respective strengths, and most likely their respective weaknesses. Yoda made a decision on what he thought was most probable. He knew that OBW couldn't take Sideous as Mace was more powerful than OBW - but Yoda was more powerful than Mace, so he had a fair chance. That left OBW to take Anakin. He knew the boy, and he knew his weaknesses, and I believe he knew that if he could survive long enough, Anakin would make a mistake, which he would take advantage of.
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/25 7:58am
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
- Date Edited:
3/25 7:58am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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Yeah but Yoda overlooked two very important factors: 1) Obi-Wan coudn't kill Anakin because of his brotherly love or whatever - which Obi-Wan did tell him flat out. Sure enough, Obi-Wan didn't kill Vader when he had the chance because he still saw Anakin laying there. 2) Anakin was the chosen one - now Yoda wasn't sure about that, but if it were true, Obi-Wan would fail in the event that "Vader" had not made a definitive decision NOT to follow his destiny. But considering he said on Mustafar that he planned to kill Palpatine, we know that Anakin hadn't yet made that decision.
In answer to the thread, Obi-Wan didn't think he could kill Anakin at that time - he was damn sure he couldn't, and he was right. But it had nothing to do with the skill of either party. I think the reverse was true as well. 21 years later, I think Obi-Wan might have been mentally able to do it, but not physically, whereas Vader was both by then and in fact did go through with it. I really would have loved to see Anakin and Obi-Wan's discussion upon Anakin becoming a force ghost, that would have been funny stuff (in a dark humor kind of way).
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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