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Topic:
Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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Vader_fan
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
4/14 12:04am
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
Vader_fan posted:
As for skill with a lightsaber, it's a fact that Anakin was a better swordsman -- he's a nine, Obi-Wan is an eight. End of story.
I thought Gillard said that the difference between 8 and 9 was simply the dark side. Therefore, a 9 is just an 8 with the dark side.
The Dark Side isn't the minor difference you make it out to be. It opens the gate to greater immediate power, its users are not bound by restrictions in combat like pure light side combatants. It's of one the major factors that make Windu so deadly. It was a factor that allowed Anakin to so soundly defeat Dooku, it was part of what allowed Luke to best Vader, and it played a role in Yoda's ability to manipulate Force lightning. You say "simply the dark side" as if it's insignificant. It's a whole other half the Force with it's own nature, strengths and weaknesses that you so easily dismiss. Besides, if there is no real difference in skill between an 8 and a 9, then why is 9 considered by Gillard and Lucas as being a superior level of skill? If there wasn't any difference in actual skill, then they would more likely have said something along the lines of "Anakin is a level 8 like Obi-Wan, but also opens himself up to the Dark Side,". The fact remains, level 9 is the next level of skill, and Obi-Wan is not grouped with Anakin, Yoda, Mace, Sidious and even Dooku at the top when it comes to power or swordsmanship.
Vader_fan posted:
The fact remains, Dooku easily defeated Obi-Wan (again) at the peak of his abilities, and Anakin easily defeated Dooku once he focused his rage and power. So, I do not assume, but know that Anakin is significantly more powerful.
Of course, Dooku seems to be the superior swordsman in AOTC. However, Obi-Wan in ROTS was taken out due to an inadequate shield against Dooku's sudden Force grip, which may not be as strong an indicator of relative power as some think.
Pure speculation -- there's no guarantee that Obi-Wan can shield himself against Dooku's Force grip. Even though he was more closely matched with Dooku in all respects the second time around, he certainly wasn't giving him much trouble. You ignore the fact that Dooku was able to hold Anakin and Obi-Wan at bay simultaneously for some time. You never hear or read of Ob-Wan being a match for Windu like Dooku either. And Dooku doesn't seem to be the superior swordsman in AotC -- he is better and by a large margin.
Vader_fan posted:
Therefore I maintain that Yoda and Obi-Wan's discussion did not adequately convey just how dangerous it would be for the latter to fight Anakin alone. It has never been an issue of could Obi-Wan defeat Anakin, but rather how likely that is to be the outcome, or just how dangerous such a confrontation could be for Kenobi, as he is facing someone more powerful and skilled than himself.
But he's Obi-Wan. He's not thinking like a Muggle. He constantly leaps into dangerous situations.
We will have to agree to disagree about Yoda and Obi-Wan's coversation.
Vader_fan posted:
It would also have made more sense for Anakin to dominate most of the duel to illustrate this fact.
Uh, hello?
Hello what? 
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"Don't make me destroy you."--Darth Vader
"Fear. Fear attracts the fearful, the strong, the weak, the innocent, the corrupt."-- Darth Maul
"Good is a point of view."--Palpatine
"You almost got us killed, are you brainless!?"--Qui-Gon
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Eternity85
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
4/14 1:55am
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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I think everyone have to agree that Anakin is more powerful than Obi Wan, thats a fact more or less! Dont know if everyone have noticed it, but at the end of the duel on Mustafar Anakin tells Obi wan: "This is the end for you my master!" Then when they start fighting , you can see it in Anakins eyes, and in Obi wans, that if Obi wan dont do anything right now he is as good as dead, but he managed to get away just in time.
I also disagree with those who think that Anakin is no match for Mace or Yoda, i dont know where they get that from.
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
4/14 3:35am
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
But he's Obi-Wan. He's not thinking like a Muggle. He constantly leaps into dangerous situations.
What's a Muggle?
Anyway, Obi-Wan does constantly leap into dangerous situations, I agree. I think if it had been a pure battle without emotion on both sides, like Obi-Wan v. Maul, then Vaderkin would have won. But under the circumstances, it was anyone's game. Vaderkin made a mistake and Obi-Wan took advantage - not full advantage as he could have, but there you have the emotional element in play again. Obi-Wan could have force shoved Vader into the lava when he made the first forward roll leap onto the platform in the lava; Vader could have finished off his force choke; Obi-Wan could have sent Vader into the lava when they were scaling the tower and Vader could have feigned an attack on Padme and killed Obi-Wan when he tried to save her (because he would). But none of those easy outs were taken by either of them because a large element of the duel was to display the emotional element running through the battle. Remember the build up before the movie came out and the last scene with them together before they dueled?
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/14 10:13am
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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For what it's worth here are some Gillard quotes:
"Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented -- but he hasn't learned the mental side of it."
"Sidious is a level nine (out of ten). On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious. Once you get to eight, you have a Pandora's box. You could go any way with it. The way not to go is the dark side. But it would tempt you, because that would jump you right past the others. So you need to arrive at level eight at the right age - not as young as Anakin. That young, the dark side is too tempting."
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/14 10:16am
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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Vader_fan posted:
It opens the gate to greater immediate power, its users are not bound by restrictions in combat like pure light side combatants. It's of one the major factors that make Windu so deadly.
You seem convinced that Mace consciously uses the dark side. Is there any canonical proof of this ( and I don't mean the Vaapad stuff from EU )? Or is this merely fanon?
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Vader_fan
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
4/14 10:26pm
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
- Date Edited:
4/14 10:27pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Vader_fan
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I was indeed referring to Vaapad. It is a fighting style that has to draw on and channel the Dark Side. To use it is to consciously use the Dark Side (at least to some extent).
It seems you don't have much of an opinion of the EU.
-----signature-----
"Don't make me destroy you."--Darth Vader
"Fear. Fear attracts the fearful, the strong, the weak, the innocent, the corrupt."-- Darth Maul
"Good is a point of view."--Palpatine
"You almost got us killed, are you brainless!?"--Qui-Gon
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/16 2:39pm
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
- Date Edited:
4/16 2:40pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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Vaapad bordered on the edge of falling to the dark side, as it channeled one's enjoyment of fighting into the attack. Only Windu's mastery and concentration on the light side prevented him from succumbing to his own anger - (Wookiepedia)
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MASTER_DOODOO
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
4/19 1:28pm
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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This all goes back to the actual ideas of the PT have HUGE flaws. The way it should have gone:
Anakin turns to save Padme. The jedi begin to rebel, but cannot fight 1000's of clone troopers and heavy machinery all at once, so they scatter throughout the galaxy right before the jedi temple is destroyed by a huge bomb. Anakin hunts the jedi down individually until only Yoda and Kenobi are left. He decides to take on both of them instead of waiting for his master to arrive to make it a fair fight. He gets de-limbed and is left to die as the emperor arrives with a lot of support.
The two things that were absolute HORRIFIC mistakes in the PT were:
1. Lucas trying to explain the force with midichlorians and taking away all the mystery and wonder of such a cool thing
2. ORDER 66 completely DESTROYING all of what the OT and episodes 1 and 2 made the jedi out to be.
If the plotline had followed the one I described above, Order 66 is unnecessary. That would have helped keep the mystique of the jedis alive - that only a sith or some ultra-extraordinary event (deathstar blasts, etc) could kill them.
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EmeraldBlade
Registered:
Apr '08
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Date Posted:
4/19 2:50pm
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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The midichlorian explanation was a good initial idea - the force should not be portrayed as magic.
It was the inconsistency and lack of expansion on the topic that hurt the PT.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/19 2:56pm
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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I agree about the lack of expansion. But as far as I know they were portrayed consistently in the PT.
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sith_rising
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
4/19 3:09pm
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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The lightsaber levels went out the window when Obi-Wan butchered Anakin. If an 8 can beat a 9, a 1 can beat a 9.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/19 3:25pm
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
- Date Edited:
4/19 3:27pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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Not really. A lightsaber level is not a guarantee of invincibility.
MASTER_DOODOO posted:
ORDER 66 completely DESTROYING all of what the OT and episodes 1 and 2 made the jedi out to be.
If the plotline had followed the one I described above, Order 66 is unnecessary. That would have helped keep the mystique of the jedis alive - that only a sith or some ultra-extraordinary event (deathstar blasts, etc) could kill them.
Episodes I and II made the Jedi out to be killable by droids and Muggles. Episode III is no different.
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EmeraldBlade
Registered:
Apr '08
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Date Posted:
4/19 3:28pm
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
I agree about the lack of expansion. But as far as I know they were portrayed consistently in the PT.
Anakin and his 20000 or so midi's created a problem for fans I think.
I am perhaps considering the Star Wars universe as a whole when I note this.
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Dark_Jedi_Kenobi
Title: PT Manager
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
4/19 7:29pm
Subject:
RE: Why did Obiwan think he could beat Anakin?
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Let's keep this on the original topic, everyone.
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