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Topic:
Heroes on BOTH sides?
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SoonerSean
Registered:
Jul '07
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Date Posted:
8/12/07 10:06am
Subject:
Heroes on BOTH sides?
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In the opening crawl of ROTS... what did Lucas mean by "There are heroes on both sides"?
At least from the depiction in the films, i.e. what only people that go to the movies might see, there aren't ANY heroes on the side of the Separatists. In fact... their ranks include Nute Gunray, Grievous, Count Dooku, Darth Sidious, and a host of others and their fighting force is made up of droids.
So... what heroes is GL referring to in regards to the "other" side?
Is it not a Republic vs. Separatist comment, i.e. maybe he's referring to heroes like Amidala and other Senators (that we don't really see in the films) that are working behind the scenes to try and end the conflict and are therefore on the "other side"?
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GrandWarlord
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
8/12/07 10:24am
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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I always figured that just depended on what side you where on. If you were on the seperatist side, the leaders of that faction would be a hero in your eyes. If you were on the republic side, the leaders would be your heros on that side. There are charectors on both sides, doing above and beyond types of things, and depending on who you are, and what you stand for, a hero can come in all shapes and sizes. But if you looked at it from the other side, or a different perspective, you'd think that one person's hero, was nothing but trouble. That's what I've made out of it. But that's just me........
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Dark_Jedi_Kenobi
Title: Manager:
• Prequel Trilogy
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
8/12/07 10:26am
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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SoonerSean posted:
In fact... their ranks include Nute Gunray, Grievous, Count Dooku, Darth Sidious, and a host of others and their fighting force is made up of droids.
You're looking at this from the Republic point of view. To the Republic, Obi-Wan and Anakin would be heroes to them and great enemies to the Separatists. Just like Dooku and Grievous are great enemies to the Republic but heroes to the Separatists. If you look at the comment as an impartial outsider than it makes sense.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
8/12/07 11:17am
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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In war, things are not as black and white as history makes them out to be. For every side in a war, there are heroes as well as villians. But it comes down to point of view. During the American Civil War, the Confederate states saw themselves as heroes for defending their beliefs, while the Union states saw themselves as the heroes of the war, for trying opposing the South. In World War II, Germany saw itself as the heroes as they were taking care of their enemies. But the US and the UK saw themselves as heroes as well, for stopping a madman from having free regin. We only see the Nazis as evil after the fact, because of the Holocaust.
The Clone Wars are no different. While the Galactic Civil War is presented as good (Alliance) versus evil (Empire), in a very black and white manner, the Clone Wars tell a very different story. A much more muddled and murky situation. The joint Jedi/Republic forces fighting against the Confederacy Of Independent Systems are wholly different. Both sides are fighting for a just cause, in a sense. The Republic is struggling to reunite itself, while the Separatists are opposed to staying with a corrupt government. But in the end, there is evil on both sides of the fence. The Republic, the Separatists and the Jedi are all being controlled by Darth Sidious. Who is manipulating them into doing his bidding, ensuring his rise to Emperor.
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SoonerSean
Registered:
Jul '07
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Date Posted:
8/12/07 11:20am
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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I understand the differing views depending on which side you stood. But I think it would be odd if we watched Saving Private Ryan and there was a crawl that said there were heroes on both sides. To be sure... there were brave men and women who fought on all sides and did so for their country, i.e. not every German solider was a murderer or hated the Jews, etc. And many of those soliders were heroes for their respective countries.
It just seems odd to me for GL to toss that one sentence into the crawl... no one watching the movies is going to think anyone on the separatist side is a hero.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
8/12/07 11:39am
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
- Date Edited:
8/12/07 10:51pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
darth-sinister
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Lucas is telling us in an unbiased point of view, that both sides are good and evil. Speilberg, being Jewish cannot in good conscience for himself and his faith, label the German forces as good. If "Saving Private Ryan" was directed by someone else, who took a more neutral stance, could very well call the German forces good as much as the US/British forces were.
ROTS is about crossing the line between good and evil. Black and white. Everyone is doing what they think is good deeds, but in reality they're serving evil and causing it's spread. Which results in the imbalance to the Force.
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Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
8/12/07 12:06pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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SoonerSean posted:
I understand the differing views depending on which side you stood. But I think it would be odd if we watched Saving Private Ryan and there was a crawl that said there were heroes on both sides. To be sure... there were brave men and women who fought on all sides and did so for their country, i.e. not every German solider was a murderer or hated the Jews, etc. And many of those soliders were heroes for their respective countries.
It just seems odd to me for GL to toss that one sentence into the crawl... no one watching the movies is going to think anyone on the separatist side is a hero.
But to people on Confederacy worlds, Dooku may be perceived as a hero.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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AnakinSucks
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
8/12/07 1:08pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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Morals are good rules of thumb, not unbreakable barriers.
There will inevitably be heroes on both sides.
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Ki-Adi-Mundi_fan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
8/12/07 1:26pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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Count Dooku would certainly be a hero from a Saperatist point of view. He was a brilliant fighter and brought the Seperatists many victories. General Grievous also had a good success rate.
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SoonerSean
Registered:
Jul '07
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Date Posted:
8/12/07 4:53pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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Again... I just think it's odd to tell us, from the POV of the Separatists, that they've got heroes. Remove that one line and does it negatively impact the rest of the intro crawl? From the POV of the people in the seats - the Separatists that you see have been responsible for massive destruction throughout the galaxy... multiple Jedi deaths, etc.
I get arguing the finer points of black and white... but saying "there are heroes on both sides" just seems a bit much from the perspective of the butts in the seats.
Sure reading the books or viewing other material you might find some on the Separatist side that thought they were doing what was right and/or could be classified as "heroes". But given that the movie going audience has only come to know 4-5 main characters from that side of the conflict - seeing the word heroes applied to that side kinda fell flat for me.
Of course... I'm not on the Lucas Film payroll... so no one asked for my opinion. 
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Strilo
Title: PT Manager
on reduced time
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
8/12/07 5:17pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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It adds to the grey nature of the prequels. Things are not black and white, and a line like that helps drive that point home.
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Obi-Chron
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
8/12/07 6:35pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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Sinister's points on heroism above are valid throught the recorded history of warfare. Lucas is merely restating this historical fact, that despite the corrupted leadership the Trade Federation (and, it turns out, the Republic as well), there were gallant and heroic warriors engaged in battle for their respective cause on both sides of the front lines.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
8/12/07 9:45pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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Obi-Chron posted:
Sinister's points on heroism above are valid throught the recorded history of warfare. Lucas is merely restating this historical fact, that despite the corrupted leadership the Trade Federation (and, it turns out, the Republic as well), there were gallant and heroic warriors engaged in battle for their respective cause on both sides of the front lines.
Exactly.
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"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
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Drac39
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
8/12/07 10:58pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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It brought up Robert E. Lee in my opinion.He is regarded as a good man and a great leader even in the North. The sepratists are their own nation now,they aren't going to view the Republic as heroes.
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MatthewZ
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
8/13/07 4:52am
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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I thought is was to set the audience up for the fact that by the end of the movie the people fighting against the Republic/Empire will be the good guys (Rebels).
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What I posted was true......from a certain point of view.
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acmilanboy
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
8/13/07 2:34pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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File this in the same category as "'you're either with me or against me'/only Sith deal with absolutes" dialogue during the Battle of the Heroes. Relativism was the name of the game in ROTS, and that "heroes on both sides" phrase in the opening crawl was the beginning of it.
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