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Topic:
Heroes on BOTH sides?
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DarthBoba
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
9/2/07 10:31am
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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So you're basically saying, if Microsoft or GM blockaded your town, nobody would see it as bad? Ookay. 
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
9/2/07 4:29pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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darth-sinister posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
That's nice, it still makes them evil and thus not heroes.
Neither was the US when they rounded up all the Japanese Americans and locked them away, during WWII. Yet many saw the US as the heroes of WWII. Or further back when the US army fought and massacared many Native American Indians, in the 19th century. There were heroes on both sides of that conflict.
Yep, those were both horrible atrocities and the United States was being evil in taking those actions. However, they were no where near as evil as Germany in WWII and I don't think that the massacre of the Native Americans was right, especially things such as the Trail of Tears.
Count-Tyranus posted:
There is really is very little difference in most wars.
The Republic sucks because of the its tolerance of slavery.
CIS sucks because it allows unbridled captialism.
Who is more wrong?
There is no slavery within the borders of the Republic, so the Confederacy.
DarthBoba posted:
Oy. Again: Thinking you're right and being right are not the same thing. Starwalker's right: the TF was clearly a menace to galactic civilization. They're a business, not a sovereign power unto themselves, and the sole reason they even existed after TPM was because a Sith Lord was in the Chancellorship.
'heroic' and 'functional' do not fit together.
Glad to see I'm not the only who sees it.
Count-Tyranus posted:
Utter rubbish. It is easy to see it as a movie goer, however, the denizens of the galaxy would never know the CIS or TF as being so bad...
That doesn't matter.
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DarthApocalypse
Registered:
Apr '07
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Date Posted:
9/2/07 5:07pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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darth-sinister posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
Neither was the US when they rounded up all the Japanese Americans and locked them away, during WWII. Yet many saw the US as the heroes of WWII. Or further back when the US army fought and massacared many Native American Indians, in the 19th century. There were heroes on both sides of that conflict.
Yep, those were both horrible atrocities and the United States was being evil in taking those actions. However, they were no where near as evil as Germany in WWII and I don't think that the massacre of the Native Americans was right, especially things such as the Trail of Tears.
That's pretty damn funny. You don't think that in it's 200+ years of existence that the US wasn't more evil than Nazi Germany in its 13 years or so of existence. Yes the Nazi's had the Holocaust which was deplorable, but lets look at the US has done..
-Captured & enslaved Africans, made it illegal to teach them to read, write, own land or weapons, made them 3/5 of a person by law.
-Used the CIA to go into Latin America and eliminate leaders they didn't like. Tried to dictate to other countries what kind of government they should have and used military force to persuade them.
-Absolutely obliterated North America's Native American population.
-Put Japanese American's into prison camps.
-Imprisons people w/o warrants, tortures them, then doesn't allow the toture to be used as evidence in a court of law.
-Promised to liberate the Phillpines and instead tried to take them over, killing plenty of Filipinos.
-Killed plenty of POWS
-Used the (fictional) Gulf of Tonkin incident as an excuse to go into Vietnam and bomb the Sith out of them and Cambodia.
I could give you a lot more, but my point is in any war whether it be the Clone Wars or World War II there are heroes on both sides and neither side has completely pure motives. The Nazi's aren't even close to being the most evil group of all time, because 1st evil is relative and 2nd they were around only 65 years ago so people remember them. Similarly the CIS is not even close to being evil as they were motivated by greed and their own welfare which is the primary concern of any country or government. They blockaded Naboo. WOW. That's really big evil.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
9/3/07 12:02am
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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Pretty much about right. When the Native Americans won a battle, the white man saw them as savages because of their beliefs. When the white man won, the Native Americans saw them as traitors who lacked honor because of the actions they took to win a battle.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
9/3/07 12:13am
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
- Date Edited:
9/3/07 12:19am (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Starwalker
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DarthApocalypse posted:
darth-sinister posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
Neither was the US when they rounded up all the Japanese Americans and locked them away, during WWII. Yet many saw the US as the heroes of WWII. Or further back when the US army fought and massacared many Native American Indians, in the 19th century. There were heroes on both sides of that conflict.
Yep, those were both horrible atrocities and the United States was being evil in taking those actions. However, they were no where near as evil as Germany in WWII and I don't think that the massacre of the Native Americans was right, especially things such as the Trail of Tears.
That's pretty damn funny. You don't think that in it's 200+ years of existence that the US wasn't more evil than Nazi Germany in its 13 years or so of existence. Yes the Nazi's had the Holocaust which was deplorable, but lets look at the US has done..
-Captured & enslaved Africans, made it illegal to teach them to read, write, own land or weapons, made them 3/5 of a person by law.
-Used the CIA to go into Latin America and eliminate leaders they didn't like. Tried to dictate to other countries what kind of government they should have and used military force to persuade them.
-Absolutely obliterated North America's Native American population.
-Put Japanese American's into prison camps.
-Imprisons people w/o warrants, tortures them, then doesn't allow the toture to be used as evidence in a court of law.
-Promised to liberate the Phillpines and instead tried to take them over, killing plenty of Filipinos.
-Killed plenty of POWS
-Used the (fictional) Gulf of Tonkin incident as an excuse to go into Vietnam and bomb the Sith out of them and Cambodia.
I could give you a lot more, but my point is in any war whether it be the Clone Wars or World War II there are heroes on both sides and neither side has completely pure motives.
I mean that within World War II the US to my knowledge weren't as bad as the Nazis(given that Holocaust.) The US in terms of the number of deeds definitely outdoes the Nazis given that as you said they existed for such a short period whereas the US has committed genocides on the Native Americans, imprisoned innocent people simply because of their race, Vietnam(which not only what you said but also the smaller atrocities that were committed such as rape, slaughtering children, massacring entire villages because they felt like it, etc.), brought down multiple democratic nations, Gitmo, Abu Gharib, etc(I know I'm just scratching the surface.)
I've also never said I thought the United States had pure motives or even that the Republic does to bring it back to the thread topic. It was simply an assumption made by darth-sinister and yourself as well as a failure to communicate that when I said the US wasn't as evil as Germany in World War II I meant that the actions that the US took within World War II were a lesser evil than the actions the Nazis took.
DarthApocalypse posted:
The Nazi's aren't even close to being the most evil group of all time, because 1st evil is relative and 2nd they were around only 65 years ago so people remember them.
1. It's not relative in Star Wars. The Empire is evil, the Rebels are fighting to restore freedom.
2. Yeah, the Nazis are largely used as the icon of evil due to how successful they were in their military campaigns until the end of the war and that they were so recent that there's still WWII vets alive.
DarthApocalypse posted:
Similarly the CIS is not even close to being evil as they were motivated by greed and their own welfare which is the primary concern of any country or government. They blockaded Naboo. WOW. That's really big evil.
The Trade Federation wasn't a country or government so it's a flawed analogy. The Trade Federation's blockade of Naboo would be the equivalent of Microsoft blockading a country because they want to force them into ceding them control.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
9/3/07 12:26am
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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Master_Starwalker posted:
I mean that within World War II the US to my knowledge weren't as bad as the Nazis(given that Holocaust.) The US in terms of the number of deeds definitely outdoes the Nazis given that as you said they existed for such a short period whereas the US has committed genocides on the Native Americans, imprisoned innocent people simply because of their race, Vietnam(which not only what you said but also the smaller atrocities that were committed such as rape, slaughtering children, massacring entire villages because they felt like it, etc.), brought down multiple democratic nations, Gitmo, Abu Gharib, etc(I know I'm just scratching the surface.)
I've also never said I thought the United States had pure motives or even that the Republic does to bring it back to the thread topic. It was simply an assumption made by darth-sinister and yourself as well as a failure to communicate that when I said the US wasn't as evil as Germany in World War II I meant that the actions that the US took within World War II were a lesser evil than the actions the Nazis took.
Against the Germans, no. But we dropped two atomic bombs on Japan, the ultimate evil.
Master_Starwalker posted:
1. It's not relative in Star Wars. The Empire is evil, the Rebels are fighting to restore freedom.
The Alliance is a terrorist organization trying to overthrow a legitimate government, going so far as to kill a bunch of people aboard two Death Stars.
Master_Starwalker posted:
The Trade Federation wasn't a country or government so it's a flawed analogy. The Trade Federation's blockade of Naboo would be the equivalent of Microsoft blockading a country because they want to force them into ceding them control.
The Trade Federation had partnerships with various local governments, thus they have Senate represntation.
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Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
9/3/07 12:30am
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
- Date Edited:
9/3/07 12:32am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Starwalker
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darth-sinister posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
I mean that within World War II the US to my knowledge weren't as bad as the Nazis(given that Holocaust.) The US in terms of the number of deeds definitely outdoes the Nazis given that as you said they existed for such a short period whereas the US has committed genocides on the Native Americans, imprisoned innocent people simply because of their race, Vietnam(which not only what you said but also the smaller atrocities that were committed such as rape, slaughtering children, massacring entire villages because they felt like it, etc.), brought down multiple democratic nations, Gitmo, Abu Gharib, etc(I know I'm just scratching the surface.)
I've also never said I thought the United States had pure motives or even that the Republic does to bring it back to the thread topic. It was simply an assumption made by darth-sinister and yourself as well as a failure to communicate that when I said the US wasn't as evil as Germany in World War II I meant that the actions that the US took within World War II were a lesser evil than the actions the Nazis took.
Against the Germans, no. But we dropped two atomic bombs on Japan, the ultimate evil.
It was incredibly evil, but I'm not sure I'd say it was a greater evil than the systemic capture and genocide of 6,000,000 people.
darth-sinister posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
1. It's not relative in Star Wars. The Empire is evil, the Rebels are fighting to restore freedom.
The Alliance is a terrorist organization trying to overthrow a legitimate government, going so far as to kill a bunch of people aboard two Death Stars.
1. When does the Alliance attempt to cause terror within the civilian population? They're a resistance movement not a terrorist organization. I know the old saying "One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist." I just don't agree with it given that terrorism is a rather specific tactic that isn't one in the same with fighting against a government.
2. The Death Stars only purpose was to destroy planets. They were attacks on a legitimate military target.
darth-sinister posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
The Trade Federation wasn't a country or government so it's a flawed analogy. The Trade Federation's blockade of Naboo would be the equivalent of Microsoft blockading a country because they want to force them into ceding them control.
The Trade Federation had partnerships with various local governments, thus they have Senate represntation.
Fox has relationships with the Bush Administration but that doesn't make Fox anything more than corporation, the fact that the Republic allowed a corporation to have representation in the Senate just shows that it was corrupt(which I don't deny.)
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
9/3/07 12:37pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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Master_Starwalker posted:
It was incredibly evil, but I'm not sure I'd say it was a greater evil than the systemic capture and genocide of 6,000,000 people.
I'd say they're about equal. However because the US won the war, Hiroshima and Nagasaki aren't seen as evil, according to the history books.
Master_Starwalker posted:
1. When does the Alliance attempt to cause terror within the civilian population? They're a resistance movement not a terrorist organization. I know the old saying "One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist." I just don't agree with it given that terrorism is a rather specific tactic that isn't one in the same with fighting against a government.
You don't think that those loyal to the Empire weren't afraid to lose their security?
Master_Starwalker posted:
2. The Death Stars only purpose was to destroy planets. They were attacks on a legitimate military target.
They still killed hundreds of people without a thought as to the ammount of lives lost and the families destroyed.
Master_Starwalker posted:
Fox has relationships with the Bush Administration but that doesn't make Fox anything more than corporation, the fact that the Republic allowed a corporation to have representation in the Senate just shows that it was corrupt(which I don't deny.)
I know, I'm just pointing out how strong a presence the Trade Federation and the other Confederacy founding members had become. Strong enough to practically be their own government.
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Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
9/3/07 12:46pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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There are flaws in your arguing Sinister:
First off: Japan attacked the US. Before they dropped the bombs they had warned the Japanese that it would happen - it's kind of like a high-ground thing
Secondly, you can't compare the Empire with anything remotely good. The rebels were not terrorists, they were men and women who had been robbed of their freedom, fighting to regain it. The Empire was lead by an omnipotent leader who by ANH had effectively closed off the senate. He only cared about power, and as he so fittingly described, feared losing it, and thus ruled with an ever-increasing firmer iron fist!
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
9/3/07 1:18pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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darth-sinister posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
It was incredibly evil, but I'm not sure I'd say it was a greater evil than the systemic capture and genocide of 6,000,000 people.
I'd say they're about equal. However because the US won the war, Hiroshima and Nagasaki aren't seen as evil, according to the history books.
According to the history books, but the history books are as you say written by the victors and as such aren't really a moral authority.
darth-sinister posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
1. When does the Alliance attempt to cause terror within the civilian population? They're a resistance movement not a terrorist organization. I know the old saying "One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist." I just don't agree with it given that terrorism is a rather specific tactic that isn't one in the same with fighting against a government.
You don't think that those loyal to the Empire weren't afraid to lose their security?
They probably were, but the creation of terror wasn't the Rebellion's goal.
darth-sinister posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
2. The Death Stars only purpose was to destroy planets. They were attacks on a legitimate military target.
They still killed hundreds of people without a thought as to the ammount of lives lost and the families destroyed.
How else were they supposed to stop the Death Star from destroying countless more planets? It had to be destroyed. The station's sole weakness was the thermal exhaust port and the Alliance couldn't stand by and let the Empire destroy more planets.
darth-sinister posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
Fox has relationships with the Bush Administration but that doesn't make Fox anything more than corporation, the fact that the Republic allowed a corporation to have representation in the Senate just shows that it was corrupt(which I don't deny.)
I know, I'm just pointing out how strong a presence the Trade Federation and the other Confederacy founding members had become. Strong enough to practically be their own government.
They were practically for sure, it just seems to me anyway they're more of a classical corporation like the East India Trade Company rather than an actual state.
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MASTER_DOODOO
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
9/3/07 1:31pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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I don't want to get too far into politics, because I know this forum isn't the place for it. But let me just comment on those U.S. "History" books. Do a little homework and find out who's in charge of running the companies that distribute those and who makes the decisions that influence what goes into those. There, you will find out why the Native American tragedy is glorified as "Manifest Destiny" and why the Holocaust is the only genocide in the history of the world that matters.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
9/3/07 1:55pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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I love that everyone thinks the fact that I support the Republic over the CIS means I'm blindly loyal to the United States government and think it's done no wrong.
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
9/3/07 2:15pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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Master_Starwalker posted:
I love that everyone thinks the fact that I support the Republic over the CIS means I'm blindly loyal to the United States government and think it's done no wrong.
Isn't that what people love doing: They take one sentence, puts it out of context, then uses it against you in all discussions to come. It's obscene and its human. And yes, I certainly understand what you mean 
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Obi-Chron
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
9/3/07 3:53pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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The lens of history appears a bit clouded here, so excuse me for side-tracking off topic, but if we are going to use 'hero' analogies on both sides of the Clone Wars, the real-life comparisons need to be accurate to validate the justificaiton. The death toll for Hiroshima was estimated at 70,000 'immediate' deaths (many more over time due to radiation effects) and 74,000 for Nagasaki. A terrible loss of life -- absolutely. But as radio pundit Paul Harvey says, "now . . . . for the REST of the story!"
Prior to Pearl Harbor, Japan had militarized steadily and invaded China, Manchuria, Mongolia, Korea, the Philippines, the Dutch East Indies, Indonesia, Indochina, Thailand, and Hong Kong to procure scarce natural resources to fuel their economy and growing war machine. During this pre-WWII expansion by Japan, hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Western and SE Asia died, millions were displace and/or pressed into slave labor and tens of thousands of indigenous women were forced into state sponsored prostitution to service the occupying military. The estimated total loss of human life in WWII in Europe and Asia is in the neighborhood of 60 million people, with 85% of those from the USSR and China. Japan also violated international treaties by blatantly using WMD (chemical weapons) against "inferior" regional Asian peoples during their ruthless subjugation campaigns. They were the image of an evil Empire, literally and figuratively.
Before dropping the atomic bomb, the Allies carpet bombed German cities and fire-bombed large Japanese cities, most notably Tokyo, which had highly flamable housing units pressed together in large concentrations. These 'more traditional' methods of warfare failed to weaken the resolve of the Imperial Japanese military. Harry Truman no doubt looked long and hard at himself in the mirror before finally deciding to nuke Japan. But the alternative was several years more war in the Pacific and up to a million more lives lost over that time.
The atomic bomb was dropped because the Japanese military, which was run by racist, war mongering prime minister Tideki Tojo, was pulling the strings in all government decisions and staunchly refused to accept any conciliatory terms let alone possible surrender. Yet within the Japanese Samurai culture of the time, the Imperial warrior was a hero, and the Emperor was their god. The Kamikaze pilots were seen as patriotic heroes in the Bushido tradition, while Allied navy crews considered them devil demons from the sky. the kamikaze warrior showed the extent to which Imperial Japan would go to keep on fighting.
President Truman had two primary options -- fight this Bushido warrior mentality and send millions of allied sons allies into harm's way by physically invading the Japanese homeland, or dropping the atomic bombs. Three days after the first bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, Nagasaki was nuked. This was done to prove the first bomb was not a fluke, and to prove to the Japanese military that they were doomed if they did not surrender.
So war is indeed hell. But after the unconditional surrender of Japan, Gen. MacArthur was appointed Governor of Occupied Japan. He had spent many years serving in the Far East prior to, during WWI and then between the wars. He understood the Eastern mind-set, eventually adapting democracy to the distinctive Japanese culture, helping to restore Japan's honor and dignity. MacArthur trained new leaders and also implemented a functional trade-based economy. Today, Japan is an anti-war economic powerhouse. Out of the evils of war came progress through human compassion.
What if Einstein never wrote his famous letter to FDR urging the USA to begin research on an atomic bomb? The fact that he did so changed the course of history.
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
9/3/07 4:11pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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Obi-Chron: Great writing. Did you write that or copy it? If you wrote it you should become a historian 
One thing though: many contest that the war would have been long lived after the time of the a-bombs. Many scholars argue that Japan was on the verge of surrendering simply because they had no more resources. Kamikaze pilots could not fly without planes. Soldiers could not fight without guns. And generally, the fighting spirit was on a low. But other than that, what you say seems good to me.
A quote about evil from Philip K.Dick:
"You and I know there is no such thing as evil. A glass of beer is evil at six in the morning. A dish of mush looks like hell around eight o'clock at night."
So I suppose it all depends on your point of view
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