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Topic:
Heroes on BOTH sides?
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
1/30 12:58pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
- Date Edited:
1/30 1:00pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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Master_Starwalker posted:
Except that Palpatine IS evil and Anakin is wrong.
I don't think it was that simple. Palpatine was certainly evil. But there was evil within the Jedi Order too - very subtle, but evil nonetheless (euphemism = corruption if you like). However that whole scene with Obi-Wan and Anakin went south when Anakin said "you are either with me or your my enemy" and Obi-Wan said "Only a Sith speaks in Absolutes" in response, then declared he'd do what he had to and broke out his lightsaber. That rang so false to me. I mean I understand they were in the heat of the moment and all, but Anakin had his back to him and obviously was not on the point of attacking. Obi-Wan should have tried a bit harder because of anyone in the world, he was the only one who could have stopped Anakin in his tracks at that point. But the story had to go the way it did and film time didn't allow for more I guess.
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/30 4:06pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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xx_Anakin_xx posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
Except that Palpatine IS evil and Anakin is wrong.
I don't think it was that simple. Palpatine was certainly evil. But there was evil within the Jedi Order too - very subtle, but evil nonetheless (euphemism = corruption if you like). However that whole scene with Obi-Wan and Anakin went south when Anakin said "you are either with me or your my enemy" and Obi-Wan said "Only a Sith speaks in Absolutes" in response, then declared he'd do what he had to and broke out his lightsaber. That rang so false to me. I mean I understand they were in the heat of the moment and all, but Anakin had his back to him and obviously was not on the point of attacking. Obi-Wan should have tried a bit harder because of anyone in the world, he was the only one who could have stopped Anakin in his tracks at that point. But the story had to go the way it did and film time didn't allow for more I guess.
But that's not evil.
-----signature-----
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
1/31 1:45pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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Master_Starwalker posted:
xx_Anakin_xx posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
Except that Palpatine IS evil and Anakin is wrong.
I don't think it was that simple. Palpatine was certainly evil. But there was evil within the Jedi Order too - very subtle, but evil nonetheless (euphemism = corruption if you like). However that whole scene with Obi-Wan and Anakin went south when Anakin said "you are either with me or your my enemy" and Obi-Wan said "Only a Sith speaks in Absolutes" in response, then declared he'd do what he had to and broke out his lightsaber. That rang so false to me. I mean I understand they were in the heat of the moment and all, but Anakin had his back to him and obviously was not on the point of attacking. Obi-Wan should have tried a bit harder because of anyone in the world, he was the only one who could have stopped Anakin in his tracks at that point. But the story had to go the way it did and film time didn't allow for more I guess.
But that's not evil.
I think it depends what you call evil. The Jedi were enveloped by a dark cloud and it was affecting them. I believe they were evil in ways and at times. They were in no way evil to the degree that Palpatine was. Anakin knew that - he made the wrong choice and he knew that too in the end.
As an aside, Anakin was a hero on both sides. Dooku and the rest of the lost 20 too.
-----signature-----
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/31 1:49pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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There was a dark cloud around them, but they were able to navigate it through for the most part. The only thing they did that I can see being viewed as evil is Ki-Adi's decision to take over the Senate.
I definitely wouldn't say Anakin was a hero on both sides. The moment he betrayed Mace Anakin ceased to be a hero and became Darth Vader. Dooku became evil when he went Sith too.
-----signature-----
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
1/31 1:54pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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From a twisted POV, Skywalker was mos-def, a hero on both sides. When Anakin ceased to be, that was it... But his legacy as a Jedi; to the public at large, was being the poster-boy, the face of the Clone wars, a real hero. After the turn, he was a hero to the Sith Legacy as he began the extermination of the Jedi by way of his own hand...
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Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
1/31 1:59pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
- Date Edited:
1/31 2:00pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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Master_Starwalker posted:
There was a dark cloud around them, but they were able to navigate it through for the most part. The only thing they did that I can see being viewed as evil is Ki-Adi's decision to take over the Senate.
I definitely wouldn't say Anakin was a hero on both sides. The moment he betrayed Mace Anakin ceased to be a hero and became Darth Vader. Dooku became evil when he went Sith too.
I meant evil heroes. Anakin was the 'hero with no fear' and later 'feared hero of the evil empire' - just in that sense, like the poster above me said.
I suppose the lost 20 would not count. I was thinking about the novels and comics, Dooku and others were heroes on the good side in those, but not in the movies.
-----signature-----
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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DRush76
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
1/31 7:40pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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The interesting thing I find about the PT is that there were "heroes", but in the end, there were no true heroes. All of the major characters committed acts that helped lead the Republic to its fall.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
2/1 9:10pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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That doesn't mean they weren't heroes.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
2/1 9:41pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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SithStarSlayer posted:
From a twisted POV, Skywalker was mos-def, a hero on both sides. When Anakin ceased to be, that was it... But his legacy as a Jedi; to the public at large, was being the poster-boy, the face of the Clone wars, a real hero. After the turn, he was a hero to the Sith Legacy as he began the extermination of the Jedi by way of his own hand...
And any Sith hero would be a villain. 
xx_Anakin_xx posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
There was a dark cloud around them, but they were able to navigate it through for the most part. The only thing they did that I can see being viewed as evil is Ki-Adi's decision to take over the Senate.
I definitely wouldn't say Anakin was a hero on both sides. The moment he betrayed Mace Anakin ceased to be a hero and became Darth Vader. Dooku became evil when he went Sith too.
I meant evil heroes. Anakin was the 'hero with no fear' and later 'feared hero of the evil empire' - just in that sense, like the poster above me said.
I suppose the lost 20 would not count. I was thinking about the novels and comics, Dooku and others were heroes on the good side in those, but not in the movies.
There's no such thing as an evil hero. It's a contradiction in terms. The evil equivalent would be a villain. The lost 20 mostly ended up being people who were good, but weren't Jedi as I understand it with Dooku being the sole exception.
DRush76 posted:
The interesting thing I find about the PT is that there were "heroes", but in the end, there were no true heroes. All of the major characters committed acts that helped lead the Republic to its fall.
As Arawn said, that doesn't mean they aren't heroes.
-----signature-----
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
2/1 11:54pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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Master_Starwalker posted:
SithStarSlayer posted:
From a twisted POV, Skywalker was mos-def, a hero on both sides. When Anakin ceased to be, that was it... But his legacy as a Jedi; to the public at large, was being the poster-boy, the face of the Clone wars, a real hero. After the turn, he was a hero to the Sith Legacy as he began the extermination of the Jedi by way of his own hand...
And any Sith hero would be a villain.
xx_Anakin_xx posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
There was a dark cloud around them, but they were able to navigate it through for the most part. The only thing they did that I can see being viewed as evil is Ki-Adi's decision to take over the Senate.
I definitely wouldn't say Anakin was a hero on both sides. The moment he betrayed Mace Anakin ceased to be a hero and became Darth Vader. Dooku became evil when he went Sith too.
I meant evil heroes. Anakin was the 'hero with no fear' and later 'feared hero of the evil empire' - just in that sense, like the poster above me said.
I suppose the lost 20 would not count. I was thinking about the novels and comics, Dooku and others were heroes on the good side in those, but not in the movies.
There's no such thing as an evil hero. It's a contradiction in terms. The evil equivalent would be a villain. The lost 20 mostly ended up being people who were good, but weren't Jedi as I understand it with Dooku being the sole exception.
Well if you are into Dark Lords, then your heroes are the Sith - if you aren't they are the villains. If you are into good guys your heroes are the Jedi - if you aren't they are your villains. Just perspective based on who you are rooting for.
-----signature-----
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
2/2 12:25pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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And only one of those perspectives is the accurate one.
-----signature-----
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
2/2 12:39pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
- Date Edited:
2/2 12:41pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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Master_Starwalker posted:
And only one of those perspectives is the accurate one.
Your perspective I take it?  . That's cool too...I think it is all right to think of the Jedi as the heroes and the Sith as the villains - that is the traditional way it is seen. It just gets a little mussed in Star Wars because the main hero of the tale (meaning the chosen one) is both a hero and a villian.
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
2/2 12:42pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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Given that we're talking about a work of fiction with clearly defined good and evil which was designed to be a morality play, yes. The view that the Sith are heroes undermines the entire point that Lucas was trying to get across.
-----signature-----
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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SHAD0W-JEDI
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
2/4 5:32pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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Like just about any SW fan, there are a few things I would LOVE to ask Lucas about. And that phrase, about heroes on both sides...is one of them. It felt weird to me at the time, and it STILL feels really weird.
I mean... lets look at the movies, shall we? Can you think of anyone...anyone...on the side of the Separatists... who seems vaguely "heroic"? The best I can come up with is Jango Fett, and he is hardly a conventional "hero". He might be arguably honorable, after a fashion, but he is an assassin, a hired killer. I don't think that is what GL had in mind.
Beyond that? I think the BEST that can be said for any of the Separatists we see is that we aren't given EXPLICIT indications of their being good or evil (mainly because they are simply background characters who don't get much to say or do!). Those we DO get to know don't seem very heroic. Dooku? Grievous? Maul? Nute Gunray? The Geonosians? Again...at BEST we can assume that SOME of them may have motivations which are not wholly selfish or outright evil - but GL completely undermines this because anytime we DO get to "know" anyone on the Separatist side better...they are painted in highly unflattering terms.
To me, with all due respect... the movies completely undercut that offhand commetn about "heroes on both sides". For me, it just doesn't work (I feel much the same about ObiWan's much discussed proclamation that only Sith's deal in absolutes - WHA? If anything, Palps is presented as the consumate ethical relativist!).
Shadow
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ezekiel22x
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
2/4 7:02pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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I think the line is pretty transparent, especially since half the movie deals with Anakin/Obi-Wan vs. Grievous. The "heroes" in question are the key figures that each side rallies around. The word "hero" can be defined as simply a person noted for special achievement in a particular field. In this case the field is leading troops against the opposite side.
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