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Topic:
Heroes on BOTH sides?
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
2/4 10:07pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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It can be, but that definition of hero doesn't fit with the rest of the Saga which throws around terms like "evil Galactic Empire."
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"You can't win, but there are alternatives to fighting." - Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Wars not make one great." - Yoda
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
2/4 10:29pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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Well that was the beauty of Star Wars - it had heroes of a type we had not seen in blockbuster form before. The prequels only filled in the beginning of the tale. The CT left us with the mysterious Darth Vader turning into the hero, Anakin Skywalker, who destroyed the Evil Sith Lord and yet, we knew next to nothing about either of them. Then we find in the prequel that Palpatine was never a hero, but Anakin was in his youth. Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Yoda, Mace and many more were heroes too and we got to see all of that which was very cool - we also got to see them all acting 'not like heroes' at times. But "heroes on both sides" is a strange statement; however, based on the strange saga with strange heroes, it is easy enough to see it as heroes for the Republic and heroes for the Empire - if one can get their head around the Empire being rooted in evil, but still the world power and every world power has its heroes at the time - they only become villains in the aftermath.
As an example, if Vaders troopers are nearly defeated, then he comes in and saves the day for them, they will see him as their hero...only those looking on and considering the Empire evil will see him as a villain. 
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
2/4 10:38pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
- Date Edited:
2/4 10:38pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Starwalker
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Darth Vader's not a hero in the OT. He's a redeemed villain. There's a fairly significant difference. The Empire held power but that's quite frankly irrelevant. Evil is evil no matter whether or not law is on it's side. Vader's troopers will view him as a hero but they're wrong.
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"You can't win, but there are alternatives to fighting." - Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Wars not make one great." - Yoda
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Dark_Jedi_Kenobi
Title: Manager:
• SFF Films & TV
• Prequel Trilogy
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
5/10 12:07pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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Upping.
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***Host of the PT Trivia Challenge Game 12: Question 10 Posted!*** http://boards.theforce.net/prequel_trilogy/b10669/23314477/p4/?184
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voodoopuuduu
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
5/10 12:25pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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But "heroes on both sides" is a strange statement; however, based on the strange saga with strange heroes, it is easy enough to see it as heroes for the Republic and heroes for the Empire - if one can get their head around the Empire being rooted in evil, but still the world power and every world power has its heroes at the time - they only become villains in the aftermath.
But the "heroes on both sides" statement was at the beginning of ROTS. The heros of the CIS believed they were fighting for independence from an unfair and messed up Republic.
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Winner CT Trivia Challenge 44, Winner PT Trivia Challenge 10 and 13
Joint-Winner CT Trivia Challenge 49 and 50
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Ferus-Olin
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
5/10 8:21pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
- Date Edited:
5/10 8:21pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Ferus-Olin
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One does not have to be "great" to be a hero. If your looking from the separatist point of view they believed they were fighting for a good cause. The separatists did win battles, their could have been every day heroes making that happen. People need a cause to fight for, I'm sure the separatists believed in their cause.
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"We are not tricksters. We are ambassadors of peace and justice."
**Proud Padawan of Silverfighter**
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DarthDuckie
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
5/11 9:49pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
- Date Edited:
5/11 10:00pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DarthDuckie
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SW is certainly at its core a morality tale, but in a saga in which the very thing which the "good guys" are fighting for switches after 3 films to become the number one enemy of the good guys can certainly not be seen as black and white ion terms of good and evil. I always interpreted the heroes on the separatists side to be those who were prepared to stand up to what they considered to be a corrupt governmental system. If those people had no idea what was really going on behind the scenes, their courage and strength of conviction could define them as heroes. These types of people would be no more or less well-intentioned dupes than those who fought for the Republic, thinking they were fighting to uphold what was good and right. Like the jedi for example.
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Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand.
-Bodie Theone
A hero is a person who understands the responsibility
that comes with his freedom.
- Bob Dylan
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SHAD0W-JEDI
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 4:18am
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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I am NOT a GL-basher...FAR from it... but there are times, IMHO, where he says something in interviews, or has his characters state something, in the movies, that the movies themselves either don't seem to support, or flat out undermine.
I don't want to repeat the post I made a bit earlier, but... if GL really wants it to be a major plot point that there was a significant number of well-meaning, "good" Separatists, and that there were genuine Separatist heroes, he might have shown us a few. Or even ONE. Greivous? Gunray? Dooku? Fett? Sorry folks - bad guys ALL. And I don't think the movies leave you any doubt how you are "supposed" to feel, when the Separatists invade Naboo, or attack the Wookie-homeworld, try to assassinate Padme, etc. Sure, one can IMAGINE that there were some Separatists motivated by a desire to break off from the Republic because of ... I don't know, onerous taxation or tariffs or some such thing! ... but you DO have to imagine that, since the movies don't give us anything to work with. Anytime we DO see the Separatists, there is a lot of evil hand-wringing, cackling, and plotting.
I also, respectfully, suggest that if GL is taking an "ethical relativistic" point of view, as some have suggested above ... for example, as in suggesting that General Grievous would have been considered a hero to someone fighting on the side of the Separatists! ... that this is a bit strange in the context of SW. I think the SW movies - and especially the Prequels - have a lot more depth than they are commonly credited with, BUT can you honestly imagine someone suggesting that Tarkin was a "hero", to choose just one obvious example? I can't. Which is why, I must confess, I found that bit about "Separatist heroes" jarring when I read it.
To be frank, I think GL threw that in there to bolster ANOTHER ill-considered, awkward move he wanted to make later in ROTS, when he had ObiWan assert that only Sith deal in absolutes ( Wha-??????). But I digress.... ; )
Shadow
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LemmingLord
Title: PT Manager & CLUE Host
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
5/14 4:28am
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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Very well said. I don't see anything in the PT that shows any separatists acting with any intentions one might call morally "good." I see vengeance and greed. If there were supposed to be separatists who thought they were doing what was right, they must have been cut out.
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LemmingLord
Take a Leap of Faith and Follow Me
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TaradosGon
Registered:
Feb '03
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Date Posted:
5/14 1:57pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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I agree with SHADOW-JEDI's point. You never see an honest living Separatist that sees the Republic as corrupt. The Trade Federation, Techno Union, Commerce Guild, Corporate Alliance, and Banking Clan all joined the Separatists for monetary gain; Grievous isn't really given alot of dimension in the films, he's simply a brutal general thaht uses shock and awe methods. And then you've got people like Dooku and Poggle the Lesser that are aware of plans for a superweapon that can destroy an entire planet.
The only hint in ROTS, aside from the opening crawl, that suggests that there may be good in the Separatist movement is when Padme asks Anakin if he ever thinks that maybe they're on the wrong side of the war.
We, as the viewers, are only shown the greedy, power hungry leadership of the Separatists. We are not exposed to the leaders of any of the seceding planets with more noble goals.
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DarthDuckie
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
5/14 3:03pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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We don't see any noble, heroic separatists, but I think that line's put in to reinforce the fact that eventhough on a grand scale the story is good v evil, on a practical, day-to-day level there were good people out there who thought that opposing the Republic was actually fighting for democracy, as well as those who thought preserving the Republic was doing the same thing.
-----signature-----
Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand.
-Bodie Theone
A hero is a person who understands the responsibility
that comes with his freedom.
- Bob Dylan
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EmeraldBlade
Registered:
Apr '08
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Date Posted:
5/14 3:58pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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Master_Starwalker posted:
Darth Vader's not a hero in the OT. He's a redeemed villain. There's a fairly significant difference. The Empire held power but that's quite frankly irrelevant. Evil is evil no matter whether or not law is on it's side. Vader's troopers will view him as a hero but they're wrong.
But they think they are right.
I don't see the problem.
To them the Jedi were evil scumbags.
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Formerly the poster known as AnakinSucks
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TaradosGon
Registered:
Feb '03
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Date Posted:
5/14 4:02pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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Also, I just remembered, aren't the next words after "There are heroes on both sides" "evil is everywhere?" So perhaps both sides have "heroes" because both sides are opposing "evil" (i.e. the other side)? I mean a historical figure like Stalin generally isn't remembered as being heroic, but one could argue that he was key to the defeat of Nazi Germany and therefore heroic in that regard. General Grievous, being a Jedi hunter and brutal commander, was not exactly a chivalric character, but could his role in opposing a corrupt political body make him heroic regardless of his personality?
I really think the opening crawl would work better with just the "evil is everywhere" part. While I understand that in the day to day politics of the Star Wars Universe there are those on both sides that see themselves as fighting for good, the noble separatists were apparently deemed unimportant to the story by Lucas, so why mention them?
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DarthDuckie
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
5/14 4:11pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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They were unimportant to the mechanics of the plot of the movies, but the fact that the separatists were not just pure evil, but rather a group of people dissatisfied with what they perceived as a corrupt and ineffective government, was important to the setting. It wasn't just a straight out good v bad situation. I think that's why he included those words in the crawl. It's important context.
-----signature-----
Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand.
-Bodie Theone
A hero is a person who understands the responsibility
that comes with his freedom.
- Bob Dylan
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EmeraldBlade
Registered:
Apr '08
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Date Posted:
5/14 4:14pm
Subject:
RE: Heroes on BOTH sides?
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I can't imagine one side waking up in the morning and deciding to be evil.
"Hmmm. I think I will be evil today... it is awesome!"
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Formerly the poster known as AnakinSucks
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