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Topic:
*OFFICIAL THREAD* Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul
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sith_rising
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
11/23/07 4:20pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Qui-gon and Obi-wan vs Darth Maul
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All good points. For the record, I think that if Maul had seperated them and killed Obi-Wan first (which he no doubt would have), Qui-Gon may have temporarily gone over the edge when the energy shield went down, and I think he would have been too much for Darth Maul. We see in the cases of Obi-Wan versus Maul, Anakin/Dooku rematch and the Luke/Vader rematch that a little Dark Side can even the odds when you're facing a superior opponent.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
11/23/07 4:34pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Qui-gon and Obi-wan vs Darth Maul
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Rossa83 posted:
I think it's important that Qui-Gon wasn't actually trying to kill Maul as he was trying to capture him. I doubt he went by the "kill first and ask afterwards" principle. Had the Jedi entered the duel with the intent of killing Maul, things could've been quite different. Just note how both OBW and Qui-Gon fights better alone - simply because they have to...
But ultimately, Maul was a ferocious dueller, and although he might not beat Qui-Gon at every encounter, he would be no push-over for anyone!
Huh, I hadn't thought about Qui-Gon fighting to capture rather than kill. I could see it, but his "We'll handle this." always sounded like it meant they were going to kill Maul to me.
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"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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averagejoe3
Registered:
Oct '07
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Date Posted:
11/23/07 4:36pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Qui-gon and Obi-wan vs Darth Maul
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or on the other hand,it could have messed up his thoughts,he would start to panic or even despair,he could have gotten confused and Maul could have completely overwhelmed him.
about what Rosa83 said...
i think yes,the original intent was to capture him,but Qui-Gon already had a taste of what Maul could do on Tatooine...he barely escaped that.and when he was faced with a life and death situation(his life and his padawan's),i think the last thing on his mind was trying to capture Maul.
we see near the end of the duel,he was going for the kill,he was on the offensive,he was pressing Maul(or falling into his trap,as Terry Brooks would say  ) even when they got the the laser wall thingies.
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
11/23/07 7:23pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Qui-gon and Obi-wan vs Darth Maul
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Qui Gon knew that there would be no chance of taking Maul alive, he knew that the Sith had come to destroy them... Many people overlook that fact that Anakin saved the Jedi. Had he not taken out the 3 Droidekas, the jedi would have been quickly overwhelmed with Maul at the front and them at the rear. Unlike the TF ship early on, in the Theed hangar there was no where to run.
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Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
11/24/07 2:57am
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Qui-gon and Obi-wan vs Darth Maul
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But SSS, you have to agree that the Jedi went there with the intent of capturing and discovering the identity of Maul? If Qui-Gon thought that he could not have taken him after what he experienced on Tatooine, he would have told the council so, and they would have sent a more powerful dueler, for instance Mace or Yoda (which I think would have been the wise decision anyways).
I'm not taking anything away from Maul as a dueller, but had the Jedi fought him on their terms, with the intent of killing him straight away, I doubt he could manage it. OBW and Qui-Gon seemed to be a good team.
Also, do you think that Maul wanted the droidekas to take out the Jedi? I think he wanted them for himself, and that the droidekas were for the Queen and her group...
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anakinandpadmedoomed
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
11/24/07 3:44am
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Qui-gon and Obi-wan vs Darth Maul
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I agree that they would of sent someone with more experience after maul.. i mean yoda didnt want obi-wan to go after dooku in ROTS for a reason.
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Sitara
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
11/24/07 7:36am
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Qui-gon and Obi-wan vs Darth Maul
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First of all, Qui-Gon (possibly the best Jedi ever) was fully attempting to kill Darth Maul, ok. Qui-Gon is not a fool. Maul nearly did him in on Tatooine; as a proponent of the LIVING force Qui-Gon is actually more inclined to find a direct and final solution to an issue.
Furthermore its obvious form the movies tone at that point (much more serious), the dialogue and the story arc that the Jedi were fighiting to kill.
Instead of deluding yourselves from seeing the obvious*, let me simply state the reason Maul defeated Qui-Gon;
Darth Maul was superior at lightsaber combat, and using the Force in conjuntion with LS combat than Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan
Had they had a wizards duel prior to the fight though; Qui-Gon may have won that. (though the dark side should never be underestimated; witness how Dooku fought Yoda to a stand still in a wizards duel)
Lastly, I would like to add that Maul could probably have bested Mace Windu in a duel as well, and maybe even Yoda. (though not both together). Mmaul was just that damn good; Lightsaber combat was Maul's 'thing', the reason for his existance in the movies.
Basically, if Qui-Gon, the last proponent of the Living Force in the Jedi Order, who regularly still took death defying missions instead of sitting on his @ss in the council was defeated, then Mace Windu would have been defeated by Maul as well.
((*Its actually Obi-Wan who was attempting to capture Jango in AOTC; Jango fans try to froth about how Jango won against Obi-Wan, when actually Obi was fighting to capture, while Jango was fighting to kill. Plus he had his kid help him with starship grade weapons. Oh and he still ran away, bumping his head in his haste . ))
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
11/24/07 7:55am
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Qui-gon and Obi-wan vs Darth Maul
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Rossa83 posted:
But SSS, you have to agree that the Jedi went there with the intent of capturing and discovering the identity of Maul?
They were given a mandate to protect the Queen, the Jedi knew the instant Maul showed up at Theed that it was now a matter of life or death. Given that we know Maul's makeup, DOTF was kill or be killed for all involved. ((Besides, Sith do not surrender; they may plead with you not to kill them, but they won't surrender.)) 
Rossa83 posted:
If Qui-Gon thought that he could not have taken him after what he experienced on Tatooine, he would have told the council so, and they would have sent a more powerful dueler, for instance Mace or Yoda (which I think would have been the wise decision anyways).
I think you might be forgetting one thing, the Council had doubts about whether Maul was in fact, Sith. Based upon what happened on Tattooine, Qui-Gon already knew how tough the 'mysterious attacker' was.
I wish that this portion of their first duel had NOT been cut. It would have illustrated how bad Maul really was, and how close he came to overwhelming Jinn.
Rossa83 posted:
I'm not taking anything away from Maul as a dueller, but had the Jedi fought him on their terms, with the intent of killing him straight away, I doubt he could manage it. OBW and Qui-Gon seemed to be a good team.
Maul was more than a match for 2 Jedi. Remember that Maul did not fight with any hesitation, or mercy... Kenobi and Jinn had to be mindful of each other. They could not swing freely as Maul did, lest they inflict collateral damage upon one another. The Jedi were a good tandem, but Maul was better than their combined talent. If he wasn't, the Jedi would have disposed of him quickly.
((SIDENOTE: Lucas was smart in sending 4 Jedi to Palpatine's office... if his Apprentices' could handle two-Jedi at a time, then what could Sidious do?))
Rossa83 posted:
Also, do you think that Maul wanted the droidekas to take out the Jedi?
They were called in to wipe out anything and everything in their path. The order was to get the treaty signed, so I took as Maul was to supposed to kill them all except Padme. Heck, he wiped-out Black Sun by himself, what were a few volunteer pilot's and two Jedi gonna do?
Rossa83 posted:
I think he wanted them for himself, and that the droidekas were for the Queen and her group...
No doubt. Maul wanted the Jedi for himself. If they fell to the Droidekas, then they weren't worthy opponents to begin with.
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Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
11/25/07 9:33am
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Qui-gon and Obi-wan vs Darth Maul
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SithStarSlayer posted:
They were given a mandate to protect the Queen, the Jedi knew the instant Maul showed up at Theed that it was now a matter of life or death. Given that we know Maul's makeup, DOTF was kill or be killed for all involved. ((Besides, Sith do not surrender; they may plead with you not to kill them, but they won't surrender.))
"Find out the identity of the attacker" sounds to me that they were trying to capture him, or at least something similar. After a while I'm sure they realized that they would have to go for the kill. But their first intent led them away from the hangar where they stood their best chance...
SithStarSlayer posted:
I think you might be forgetting one thing, the Council had doubts about whether Maul was in fact, Sith. Based upon what happened on Tattooine, Qui-Gon already knew how tough the 'mysterious attacker' was.
I wish that this portion of their first duel had NOT been cut. It would have illustrated how bad Maul really was, and how close he came to overwhelming Jinn.
Not so bad that Jinn didn't force him off again
The council did have doubts... but also, QG only said that he was well trained in the Jedi arts, not that he was exceptional.. 
However, I still think that they should have played it safe and sent their best duellers...
SithStarSlayer posted:
Maul was more than a match for 2 Jedi. Remember that Maul did not fight with any hesitation, or mercy... Kenobi and Jinn had to be mindful of each other. They could not swing freely as Maul did, lest they inflict collateral damage upon one another. The Jedi were a good tandem, but Maul was better than their combined talent. If he wasn't, the Jedi would have disposed of him quickly.
((SIDENOTE: Lucas was smart in sending 4 Jedi to Palpatine's office... if his Apprentices' could handle two-Jedi at a time, then what could Sidious do?))
That depends greatly on the two Jedi. Yoda and Mace would take him single handedly, ROTS OBW would also. However, for most Jedi, Maul would be more than a match - very true.
I don't think that Maul was better than QG and OBW together. Maul knew that as well, and therefore his tactics was to separate them. Again, had the Jedi forced him to stay in the hangar, things would be different...
SithStarSlayer posted:
They were called in to wipe out anything and everything in their path. The order was to get the treaty signed, so I took as Maul was to supposed to kill them all except Padme. Heck, he wiped-out Black Sun by himself, what were a few volunteer pilot's and two Jedi gonna do?
Again, that depends on the Jedi 
That's EU, and you know that's exaggerated
SithStarSlayer posted:
No doubt. Maul wanted the Jedi for himself. If they fell to the Droidekas, then they weren't worthy opponents to begin with.
True...
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averagejoe3
Registered:
Oct '07
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Date Posted:
11/25/07 10:29am
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Qui-gon and Obi-wan vs Darth Maul
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well i think he was better than the two combined....the novel seems to clarify this:Years of training had gone into the preparation of Darth Maul as a Sith Lord. He had been more than the equal of the Jedi Knights he had faced and should have been able to defeat them easily. It was bad luck and chance that had led to his death, a combination that even the power of the dark side could. not always overcome.
ROTS Obi-Wan could have beaten TPM Maul,but not a 13 years older Maul.by then Maul could have been Sidious' equal,i think.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
11/25/07 4:46pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul
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SithStarSlayer posted:
Rossa83 posted:
Also, do you think that Maul wanted the droidekas to take out the Jedi?
They were called in to wipe out anything and everything in their path. The order was to get the treaty signed, so I took as Maul was to supposed to kill them all except Padme. Heck, he wiped-out Black Sun by himself, what were a few volunteer pilot's and two Jedi gonna do?
Bisect him while he stands there shocked that a Padawan beat him.
SithStarSlayer posted:
Rossa83 posted:
I'm not taking anything away from Maul as a dueller, but had the Jedi fought him on their terms, with the intent of killing him straight away, I doubt he could manage it. OBW and Qui-Gon seemed to be a good team.
Maul was more than a match for 2 Jedi. Remember that Maul did not fight with any hesitation, or mercy... Kenobi and Jinn had to be mindful of each other. They could not swing freely as Maul did, lest they inflict collateral damage upon one another. The Jedi were a good tandem, but Maul was better than their combined talent. If he wasn't, the Jedi would have disposed of him quickly.
((SIDENOTE: Lucas was smart in sending 4 Jedi to Palpatine's office... if his Apprentices' could handle two-Jedi at a time, then what could Sidious do?))
He was a match for them due to the negatives that come with fighting as a team. Obi-Wan shows that individually when drawing on the Dark Side, he's Maul's superior in raw offensive ability. Maul simply played on Ben's hate-induced tunnel vision and shoved him into the pit. Ben simply does the same to Maul by out thinking the Sith Lord and going for his dying master's lightsaber.
averagejoe3 posted:
well i think he was better than the two combined....the novel seems to clarify this:Years of training had gone into the preparation of Darth Maul as a Sith Lord. He had been more than the equal of the Jedi Knights he had faced and should have been able to defeat them easily. It was bad luck and chance that had led to his death, a combination that even the power of the dark side could. not always overcome.
ROTS Obi-Wan could have beaten TPM Maul,but not a 13 years older Maul.by then Maul could have been Sidious' equal,i think.
Who says that in the novel? I also highly doubt Maul would be Sidious's equal by RotS. He'd at best be on Dooku's level imo.
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EECHUUTA
Registered:
Mar '07
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Date Posted:
11/25/07 5:05pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul
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Which novel was this? The Phantom Menace one?
I think this would be true in time... that Maul's skills would have increased exponentially as Sidious was probably intending for this Apprentice to succeed him in the Banite tradition. To do that, the Apprentice couldn't be a weakling, he had to have at least a possible chance at eventually beating Sidious. And to do THAT, you have to have a pretty powerful Apprentice as Sidious was really, really powerful. One bit of evidence for this could be that Anakin wasn't born yet when Sidious picked Maul and began to train him, and Count Dooku was still a Jedi Master.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
11/25/07 5:20pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul
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Maul had to replace him eventually, but I don't see any reason to think he'd want an apprentice who would replace him before his plan to rule the galaxy was finished.
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"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
11/26/07 12:54pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul
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Master_Starwalker posted:
Maul had to replace him eventually, but I don't see any reason to think he'd want an apprentice who would replace him before his plan to rule the galaxy was finished.
My thoughts exactly 
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
11/26/07 1:08pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul
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Kenobi got lucky with two shots, one for the saber hilt, and then second when he knocked Maul down. Maul proved to be Kenobi's superior in combat, not the other way around. Even when was empowered by his dark-emotions he couldn't best Maul. That little thing that Kenobi held onto was called an OT-life-saver. Maul only died because he had to... for the story's sake.
Nothing more.
Nothing less.
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Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
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Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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