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Topic:
Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
11/30/07 1:34pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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OBI-GYN_Kenobi posted:
Mace Windu was the ONLY Jedi/Sith who was undefeated in a lightsaber battle in the PT
That's strange. Guess I missed the part where Yoda was defeated in AOTC.
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sith_rising
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
11/30/07 2:35pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Yoda lost to Darth Sidious in ROTS. Retreat is defeat.
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"My mentor taught me everything about the Force, even the nature of the Dark Side"
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Darth_Davi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
11/30/07 5:52pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
OBI-GYN_Kenobi posted:
Mace Windu was the ONLY Jedi/Sith who was undefeated in a lightsaber battle in the PT
That's strange. Guess I missed the part where Yoda was defeated in AOTC.
I did too...although it looked to me an awful lot like Dooku dropped the ceiling Yoda's head as a diversion, so he could flee...if retreat = defeat, Dooku lost in AOTC, not Yoda.
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What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon?
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide!
It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
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sith_rising
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
11/30/07 5:58pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Yes, Yoda lost to Darth Sidious and Darth Tyranus lost to Yoda.
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"My mentor taught me everything about the Force, even the nature of the Dark Side"
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
11/30/07 8:18pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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And Yoda would lose to the new Emperor, who would never lose to Anavader, who lost to Obi-Wan, who became Ben and lost to Vader, who lost to Luke who lost to the Emperor who lost to AnaVader.
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Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
11/30/07 8:57pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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When does Ben lose to Vader? He lets himself die to cover Luke's escape.
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"The ways of the Living Force are beyond our understanding... But fear not. You are in the hands of something much greater and much better than you can imagine." - Qui-Gon Jinn
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sith_rising
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
12/1/07 5:08am
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Kenobi also lost to Tyranus (twice), was beaten in lightsaber combat by Darth Maul (and narrowly won through sheer chance), and also lost to General Grievous (and narrowly won by using a stolen firearm). Odd that the galaxy's luckiest man does not believe in luck!
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r8hitman
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
12/1/07 9:04am
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
- Date Edited:
12/1/07 9:08am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
r8hitman
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sith_rising posted:
Yoda lost to Darth Sidious in ROTS. Retreat is defeat.
Yoda didnt retreat from Sidious, he retreated from an entire army of stormtroopers.
(you'd have to be a fool to think that Yoda didnt know they were coming)
Yoda never runs from Sidious alone (and actually Sidious tried running from Yoda at the beginning) so I dont get this notion that Yoda "lost the fight".
He said he failed....
but Yoda would have "failed" even if he beat the crap out of Sidious and won the lightsaber duel (which he did) but didnt kill him.
See Sidious only had to survive, Yoda has to KILL Sidious to be successful in his mission, and anything less is failure for him.
EDIT:
I dont care if Yoda had Sidious crying in the corner and made him say 'uncle' (  )Yoda still would have failed if he didnt get the kill.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
12/1/07 12:20pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Yoda left the Senate because he knew that if he kept fighting, he would be throwing away his life needlessly. The Clonetroopers were not summoned yet, so that is not why he fled. He fled because he realized that there were alternitives to fighting and this was that alternitive. He trusted his feelings and they proved to be correct, as we learn by the end of the film and into the OT.
Mace could defeat Anakin, as mentioned, because of Anakin's emotional state of mind. Otherwise, as good as Mace is, Anakin can top even him. All it takes is the focus of the OT Vader to do it.
Obi-wan did lose to Dooku because he was not ready to fight him the first time. The second time, Dooku took him out of the fight, not because he was outfought. But because Dooku wanted to enrage Anakin. If this was a two-on-one fight without having to enrage Anakin, the fight would've gone longer and both Jedi would eventually win.
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sith_rising
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
12/1/07 12:45pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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True. Yoda had zero fear of Clonetroopers, he'd just killed a platoon of them in front of the Jedi Temple. He knew it was a losing fight; even if he were better than Sidious, the Force was not with him. He knew that the galactic tide had turned against the Jedi. The Jedi's inability to use the Force, the growing darkness surrounding the Clone Wars, all of it culminated in his defeat. The fact that Obi-Wan succeeded where he'd failed was, to say the least, remarkable.
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"My mentor taught me everything about the Force, even the nature of the Dark Side"
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r8hitman
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
12/1/07 1:45pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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darth-sinister posted:
Yoda left the Senate because he knew that if he kept fighting, he would be throwing away his life needlessly. The Clonetroopers were not summoned yet, so that is not why he fled. He fled because he realized that there were alternitives to fighting and this was that alternitive. He trusted his feelings and they proved to be correct, as we learn by the end of the film and into the OT.
"throwing away his life" to whom??
Surely not Sidious...they were fighting at a stalemate, there is no way that you can say that he left because of Sidious. Obviously he knew that he had missed his opportunity and that to keep pursuing Palpatine would mean his death. (because of Sidious' troops/guards)
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Darth_Davi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
12/1/07 4:42pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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"However, after all of his limbs were severed and he was extremely burned on Mustafar he lost much of his Force potential. As Darth Vader, Anakin was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor. Had he sustained none of his injuries on Mustafar he would have been twice as powerful."
-George Lucas; Empire of Dreams.
"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."
-Mace Windu; ROTS novelization.
so, yeah. Pre-suited Vader could defeat Mace Windu, even Mace Windu believes that.
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What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon?
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide!
It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
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Drac39
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
12/1/07 4:44pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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You forget though that the Dark Side plays a huge part in it. I think if Anakin was in full rage he could have done it.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
12/1/07 4:51pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Against Mace Windu however the Dark Side would be a liability as Vaapad would reflect all of Vader's anger and hatred back towards himself which only make Mace stronger and more effective. A Light Side Anakin would have a better chance against Windu than one drawing on the Dark Side.
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"The ways of the Living Force are beyond our understanding... But fear not. You are in the hands of something much greater and much better than you can imagine." - Qui-Gon Jinn
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Vader_fan
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
4/13 5:56am
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
- Date Edited:
4/13 6:00am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Vader_fan
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Matthew78 posted:
Mace Windu is a lot younger than Count Dooku and much stronger and has mastered more lightsaber forms, according to Lucas, Mace,Palpatine and Yoda are level 9's in terms of dueling and combat skills and everyone else is beneath them, even Anakin who is still young and not experienced yet, Vader loses IMHO fairly quickly,against Yoda Vader would also lose, against anyone else and Vader would win except for Obi-Wan.
The statement I highlighted in bold tries my patience. How many times must it be said -- Anakin Skywalker, youth and inexperience notwithstanding, is a level 9. This is a fact. Which means he is every bit as formidable as Mace, Yoda and Palpatine. To claim that Anakin hasn't achieved the same level of skill as Yoda, Mace and Palpatine is to deliberately ignore facts. Facts from Lucas and Gillard themselves.
Strange how people seem to think that Mace could goad Anakin into making a mistake, simply because of Anakin's supposed "bagge" regarding Mace. Goading Anakin is a very dangerous and risky move. It could lead to his defeat, but it could just as easily lead to extreme pain and sudden defeat for his opponent. Dooku's taunting backfired on him in RotS -- badly.
Dooku had more experience than Windu, managed to defeat Obi-Wan (a level 8 duellist and a powerful Jedi in his own right) with ease, while still fending off Anakin (a level 9 duellist who by Mace's own admission is also arguably the most powerful Jedi alive) at the same time. Even though he still lost in the end, it is a testament to how powerful and skilled Dooku is, both with a lightsaber and the Force, that he was able to hold his own against Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously for as long as he did.
Regarding Dooku's bladework, it's stated in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous; "Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground,". That statement directly implies that at best, Mace is Dooku's equal in combat, but Dooku may very well be better. Anakin also had a great deal of "baggage" when it came to Dooku -- he lost an arm to him for Force's sake! Yet when they fought one-on-one for the second time, he was defeated with relative ease by Anakin. Why then do so many think Mace would be more of challenge for Anakin than Dooku? At best he would be an equal challenge for Anakin.
Anakin was also motivated by his love for Padme (the one thing he cherishes most) and his fear of her death -- he has just as much motivation as Mace does.
Mace enjoys fighting, but so does Anakin.
Obi-Chron, what makes you think a Force Choke wouldn't be of any use against Mace? Thus far, it is the only Force power that hasn't been blocked or countered in some way in any of the movies. I'm not saying Mace could be killed by it, but certainly weakened or slowed down.
So, while I believe it would be close, Anakin is the victor.
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"Don't make me destroy you."--Darth Vader
"Fear. Fear attracts the fearful, the strong, the weak, the innocent, the corrupt."-- Darth Maul
"Good is a point of view."--Palpatine
"You almost got us killed, are you brainless!?"--Qui-Gon
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