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Topic:
Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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r8hitman
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
4/16 8:54am
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Anakin is not a better 'jedi' than Mace so lets throw that option out the window.
He doesnt have the skill, experience, wisdom that Mace has, so trying to defeat Mace as a jedi wont work for Anakin....
Mace defeated the sith MASTER in lightsaber combat, so I seriously doubt that using the darkside would help Anakin since he's basically a novice.
There is no way IMO, that he can take Mace unless Mace strays away from what he knows and decides to use the darkside himself.
All of you people who seem to think that Anakin could take Mace need to just replace Mace with Yoda and then ask yourself if you think that Anakin could win that fight. 
And then keep in mind that Mace is on par with Yoda.
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
4/16 11:05am
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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r8hitman posted:
Anakin is not a better 'jedi' than Mace so lets throw that option out the window.
He doesnt have the skill, experience, wisdom that Mace has, so trying to defeat Mace as a jedi wont work for Anakin....
Mace defeated the sith MASTER in lightsaber combat, so I seriously doubt that using the darkside would help Anakin since he's basically a novice.
There is no way IMO, that he can take Mace unless Mace strays away from what he knows and decides to use the darkside himself.
All of you people who seem to think that Anakin could take Mace need to just replace Mace with Yoda and then ask yourself if you think that Anakin could win that fight.
And then keep in mind that Mace is on par with Yoda.
The same Yoda that had trouble with Dooku? Kidding. Look, anyone can beat anyone else on any given day. But the bottom line is, Anakin was the most powerful Jedi - in Mace's words. But Anakin's weakness were his emotions, they caused him to lose focus (Sidious was right about that). However, Anakin wouldn't have emotional difficulties fighting Mace, just like he didn't have any fighting Dooku once he gained his focus. Pre-suit Vader was all about focus (except with Obi-Wan). So I don't see how Mace would stand a chance. Yoda wouldn't die in battle with Anakin because he knows when to cut his losses and run.
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r8hitman
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
4/16 12:07pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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I dont agree with that at all.
(especially the Yoda "running" part)
Yoda would present the same problems that Mace would present for Anakin.....skill, wisdom, and faith in the force.
Once Anakin is facing someone who is truly dedicated and skillful he will fold because Anakin himself IS NOT dedicated to anything except himself and his own needs.
He remains torn throughout the entire saga because his feelings continue to get the best of him ("feelings" include anger, envy, and frustration...which is exactly what he would have to deal with while facing a true MASTER of either side) and that is enough to raise doubt in an individual and that doubt will lead to confusion, which leads to the emotional instability that will STILL cause him to lose against Mace or Yoda or Sidious.
If Anakin had half the focus of Obi-Wan, Mace, Yoda, or even Sidious he would be virtually unbeatable....
but we know that's not the case....pre-suited Vader or suited Vader.
Yeah he lost to Obi-Wan for obvious emotional reasons but there are other emotions that would play a factor in his eventual loss to any of the top three masters.
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MasterAnders
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/16 12:19pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
- Date Edited:
4/16 2:42pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Strilo
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Where do you get that from?? Yoda and Mace more skilled than Anakin
Obi Wan and Anakin is the two jedi with most combat experience.
But Mace has more knowledge with the force than Anakin, but when it comes to fighting skills.. Use your common sense! A man who has spent three years at the frontline hoaning his skills.
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DarthApocalypse
Registered:
Apr '07
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Date Posted:
4/16 2:00pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
- Date Edited:
4/16 2:43pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Strilo
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Using a lightsaber against droids with guns (As Anakin did during the Clone Wars) does not prepare one to battle saber to saber with the Order's #2. Bottom line, Yoda and Mace are the top two Jedi in the Order and Anakin can't touch either of them. Did Mace say Anakin was the most powerful Jedi? Hell yeah he did. But power is not the sole determinant in who wins a fight. Like r8hitman has been saying, Anakin is simply not dedicated enough to his fighting skills, or his Force training.
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MasterAnders
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/16 2:24pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
- Date Edited:
4/16 2:43pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Strilo
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Anakin owned Dooku! And Dooku is just as good dueler as Mace, according to EU
But in the end I belvie Mace would destroy Dooku.
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DarthApocalypse
Registered:
Apr '07
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Date Posted:
4/16 2:32pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
- Date Edited:
4/16 2:43pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Strilo
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1.Anakin beat Dooku not because of saber skills, but because he simply over powered an old man that was physically weak. The movie shows Anakin using physical force to hold down Dooku's arms and the novelization says the power of Anakin's strikes buckled Dooku's elbows. I seriously doubt that Anakin would overpower Mace because Mace is much younger and fitter than Dooku, therefore Anakin would have no advantage against Mace.
2.What is your source for Dooku being the same level as Mace? Dooku couldn't even make Yoda break a sweat so how can he beat Mace who is just as good?
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Strilo
Title: PT Manager
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
4/16 2:44pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Just a reminder guys not to hit "quote" when replying to a post immediately before yours. 
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MasterAnders
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/17 3:23am
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Age dosen't seem to matter that much.. Sid, Yoda and Dooku are quite old and they still seem to be on top of their game.
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LemmingLord
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
4/17 4:14am
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
- Date Edited:
4/17 4:15am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
LemmingLord
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I'd give the odds of 2:1 Mace over Anakin/Vader.
For comparison, I'd give 5:4 Obi Wan over Anakin/Vader.
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
4/17 7:52am
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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DarthApocalypse posted:
1.Anakin beat Dooku not because of saber skills, but because he simply over powered an old man that was physically weak. The movie shows Anakin using physical force to hold down Dooku's arms and the novelization says the power of Anakin's strikes buckled Dooku's elbows. I seriously doubt that Anakin would overpower Mace because Mace is much younger and fitter than Dooku, therefore Anakin would have no advantage against Mace.
2.What is your source for Dooku being the same level as Mace? Dooku couldn't even make Yoda break a sweat so how can he beat Mace who is just as good?
You know, it doesn't matter to me if Mace would win, I dig Mace and all of the characters. I am just being realistic here. I keep hearing what sound like excuses. Every single victory Anakin had was a "lucky win" or his opponent was "taken by surprise" or "aged" or "whatever excuse but in reality better than Anakin". What is up with that?
Anakin sheered Mace's arm off in Palp's office. People say it is because he took Mace by surprise. And yet Yoda had his back to the clones and defeated them although they should have taken him by surprise during Order 66. Where was Mace's sense of danger? Failing - why? Because Mace's focus was elsewhere? Because although he was talking to Anakin at the time he couldn't sense his feelings for some reason? Because his Vaapad ceased his mind up? I can come up with a 1000 excuses, but the fact of the matter is, when Anakin is determined to do something, the Force is 1000% behind him. People say the same thing about Anakin picking up the Emperor and tossing him into the shaft. He took the Emperor by surprise - and they say that even though Sidious redirected the electric force waves from his fingers onto Anakin. But Anakin used the Force then with determination just like he did in the offce with Mace and the point is, with his ten zillion midochlorians, Anakin was unbeatable when focused.
Now whatever failure Mace had when Anakin was too quick for him in the office - well, that could happen again. If it did and Anakin remained focused, Mace would be a goner. Even if it didn't and Anakin remained focused, Mace would be a goner. Anakin only became unfocused when he fought emotionally (Obi-Wan) or trying miserably to quelch the dark side (Dooku). In the Dooku fight, he got his focus back and won. There is no reason Anakin would have an emotional fight with Mace - and pre-suit Vader wouldn't be struggling with trying to be a good Jedi, so there would be absolutely no reason for him to lose his focus - unless Mace somehow convinced him to question himself about the whole Jedi/Sith thing. But Mace, like Yoda, wouldn't question him, he'd just try to defeat him and that would spell Mace's doom.
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DarthApocalypse
Registered:
Apr '07
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Date Posted:
4/17 11:34am
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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The fact is Anakin had one legitimate lightsaber combat victory and that was against Dooku in ROTS. Calling his other wins excuses, or luck (your words, not mine) doesn't change the fact that Anakin attacked Mace and Sidious from behind while they were distracted by another opponent. Hell, I could kill Yoda if I stabbed him in the back while he was fighting someone else. I really don't see how jumping someone from behind proves you are a better fighter than they are. Your Yoda example doesn't prove anything because Yoda wasn't distracted with another opponent at the time the clone troopers tried to jump him. In addition your claim that Anakin can do anything he puts his mind to is not proven by anything. Anakin failed as a Jedi, failed to save his mother, failed to beat Obi-Wan and failed to resist the Dark Side. I don't see how you can dismiss these failures without making, as you say, excuses.
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MasterAnders
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/17 12:15pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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"You have become a far greater jedi than I could ever hoped to be" Obi Wan Kenobi ROTS
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" I have abided by three laws in my life. Honor the gods, love your woman, and defend your country"
Hector: Prince of Troy
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r8hitman
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
4/17 12:50pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
- Date Edited:
4/17 12:54pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
r8hitman
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"a young jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil, betrayed and murdered your father" Obi-Wan Kenobi-ANH
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Blu-Bladed-Jedi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/17 1:59pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Mace was did not see or foresee that Anakin would betray him and cut off his arm because of his lightsaber form. Form VII Vaapad takes the user to the edge of the lightside of the force, even tapping into the dark side slightly. While in battle, especially one as important and as intense as one with a Sith Lord, Mace's focus is on the fight. Meanwhile, cutting off Mace's hand in no way proves DV could defeat him in a fight.
I would argue that his arrogance and lack of patience would be DV's downfall against Mace jsut as it was against OWK. Anakin hated Mace and this would show. Mace is far more experienced and skilled. DV was impressive with a lightsaber but Mace was better. Even if they were equal, Mace mentally was stronger.
This theory does not disprove Anakin as the Chosen One. In the SW universe everything boils down to destiny and fate. In many ways the creation of the empire and fall of jedi lead to a better jedi order and republic. One which lacked corruption. (I am not referring to EU material but the state of the galaxy at the end of ROTJ)
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