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Topic:
Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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r8hitman
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
4/17 2:19pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Even if they were equal, Mace mentally was stronger.
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DarthApocalypse
Registered:
Apr '07
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Date Posted:
4/17 2:22pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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MasterAnders posted:
"You have become a far greater jedi than I could ever hoped to be" Obi Wan Kenobi ROTS
1.And even after making this statement, Obi-Wan still crippled Anakin. So those words really don't mean jack.
2.How does Obi-Wan thinking Anakin is better than him mean that Anakin can beat Mace?
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MasterAnders
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/17 2:23pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Blu-Bladed-Jedi posted:
Mace was did not see or foresee that Anakin would betray him and cut off his arm because of his lightsaber form. Form VII Vaapad takes the user to the edge of the lightside of the force, even tapping into the dark side slightly. While in battle, especially one as important and as intense as one with a Sith Lord, Mace's focus is on the fight. Meanwhile, cutting off Mace's hand in no way proves DV could defeat him in a fight.
I would argue that his arrogance and lack of patience would be DV's downfall against Mace jsut as it was against OWK. Anakin hated Mace and this would show. Mace is far more experienced and skilled. DV was impressive with a lightsaber but Mace was better. Even if they were equal, Mace mentally was stronger.
This theory does not disprove Anakin as the Chosen One. In the SW universe everything boils down to destiny and fate. In many ways the creation of the empire and fall of jedi lead to a better jedi order and republic. One which lacked corruption. (I am not referring to EU material but the state of the galaxy at the end of ROTJ)
Far more experienced and skilled?? "The boy has exceptional skills"
When it comes to fighting, mace is not more skilled! nor does he have more experince fighting.
Knowledge.. Mace scores much higher tough! And he knows what he's doing.
Darthsinister: Whats your opinion here?
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Blu-Bladed-Jedi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/17 2:29pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
- Date Edited:
4/17 2:31pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Blu-Bladed-Jedi
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MasterAnders posted:
Far more experienced and skilled?? "The boy has exceptional skills"
When it comes to fighting, mace is not more skilled! nor does he have more experince fighting.
Knowledge.. Mace scores much higher tough! And he knows what he's doing.
Darthsinister: Whats your opinion here?
Yes Mace has more experience! He is much older than Anakin and has been a jedi much longer. Meanwhile, most of Anakin's experience comes in the Clone Wars where Mace also fought. I never said Anakin didn't have skill, but Mace is known for being the best swordsman of the jedi.
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MasterAnders
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/17 2:34pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Ofcourse he has more experince as a jedi, but on the battlefield I doubt it.
Anakin has fought dooku twise and he also fought Asajj Ventress during clone wars.
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rumsmuggler
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
4/17 2:38pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
- Date Edited:
4/17 2:39pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
rumsmuggler
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Mace is one of the greatest fighters in the order, developed his own fighting style(refined it from Juyo) and has fought in several conflicts before the clone wars. Anakin is plenty skilled in fighting as well, but Mace has years of experience on his side.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mace_Windu
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Blu-Bladed-Jedi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/17 2:38pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Mace also fought Asajj Ventress and defeated ehr easily, meanwhile he is the reason General Grevious coughs. There may be some arguments that favor Anakin but experience is not one of them.
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"I am a Jedi like my father before me."
"At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we will have our revenge."
"I see through the lies of the Jedi, I do not fear the Dark Side as you do."
"No, do or do not, there is no try."
"But I was going in
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MasterAnders
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/17 3:05pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Agree!
Don't get me wrong.. Mace is an exellent jedi, but in a toe to toe fight with Anakin, I'm afraid he would lose..
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Blu-Bladed-Jedi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/18 7:08am
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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why? you have given no evidence! trust me anakin is my favorite too but without evidence you have no argument.
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"I am a Jedi like my father before me."
"At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we will have our revenge."
"I see through the lies of the Jedi, I do not fear the Dark Side as you do."
"No, do or do not, there is no try."
"But I was going in
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MasterAnders
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/18 8:08am
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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I've read books and comments by the makers of star wars.. And I think realisticly.
btw, Anakin is not my favorite. I really don't have any favorite, but if i had to choose, Obi Wan is a good candidate 
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Blu-Bladed-Jedi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/18 9:41am
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Okay but what I am saying is that even if you have read books you have not provided any information to back up your opinion. If you read Shatterpoint about Mace Windu, you get a sense of how powerful he is. His vaapad form is the most powerful form when mastered. He defeated sidious, who is the master to anakin.
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"I am a Jedi like my father before me."
"At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we will have our revenge."
"I see through the lies of the Jedi, I do not fear the Dark Side as you do."
"No, do or do not, there is no try."
"But I was going in
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MasterAnders
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/18 11:00am
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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True.
But if you read the ROTS bokk you get a feeling how powerful Anakin is.. and so on.
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sithsaber_408
Registered:
Apr '08
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Date Posted:
4/18 11:15am
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Long time reader, first time poster. I actually created an account to weigh in on this. 
I don't think Mace could beat pre-suit Darth Vader.
Lots of reasons here, but I'll try to be concise.
1.) As already mentioned, Anakin IS a level 9 along with Yoda, Mace, and Sidious. A few posters have incorrectly stated that only those 3 are on the top level, wheras both George Lucas and Nic Gillard have said that Anakin is on the same level as them. So he's just as strong. George Lucas states "However, after all of his limbs were severed and he was extremely burned on Mustafar he lost much of his Force potential. As Darth Vader, Anakin was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor. Had he sustained none of his injuries on Mustafar he would have been twice as powerful." He also mentions elsewhere that Anakin is the most powerful force user of all time. Coupled with Sidious's line: "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us." and Obi-Wan's "You've become a far greater Jedi than I could ever hope to be." and Mace in the ROTS novel:"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger." So there we have the argument that he's on par with, if not more powerful than Yoda, Sidious, and Mace. They are equals in terms of Force power.
2.) The argument that Obi-wan (level 8, according to NG) defeats Anakin is bogus. It was the will of the force, and only because of Anakin's attachement to Obi-wan, emotional distress at having hurt his wife, and Obi-wan's years of training and fighting with Anakin that even put him on an equal ground. Still, he would've lost in the end, as clearly evidenced by his tired breathing on the floating platforms at the end of the Mustafar duel. Vader isn't even fazed. "This is the end for you my master." That was for real, and they both knew it. Anakin made a cocky mistake, but only due to the above mentioned factors already being in play did it actually result in his losing. So saying "Even obi-wan can beat him" isn't admissable in this debate, IMO. That was a fluke, and no other Jedi (or Sith) would be in that same postion, in that same timeframe against Anakin.
3.) The argument that Mace is stronger for "defeating" Sidious isn't admissable either, IMO. That he actually beat Sidious is still up for debate. Lucas himself says: "Originally we just had the fight, and it got more intense and Anakin walks in, but we reshot it to have him sort of pretend to lose and it makes him more slimy, etc.." (I'm paraphrasing here, if anybody has the exact quote from the ROTS dvd commentary please throw it in here!)Sidious, "close to death" gets right up and is fine once Mace goes out the window. How much Sidious let this happen to bait Anakin hasn't been proven yet.
4.) Anakin defeats Dooku, with focused anger and concentration. That's what he would use on Mace. It'd be the same Anakin that kills the Seperatist leaders in the bunker. Having already grown strong enough to hand Dooku his tail (Dooku being a powerful sith lord that pwnt Obi-Wan twice and was considered "the greatest fencer in the Order" mind you), and in the mode of "yellow eyes", I don't see Mace beating him.
Even in the office, had they had a straight on duel I believe light-side Anakin would win. It's flat-out stated that he's the greatest Jedi of all time. He's the most powerfull, with the highest midi-chlorian count. By the time of ROTS, there is nobody better. Most posters don't seem to accept that, though it's stated often enough by the creators and all the main characters.
The only thing against him in this debate (remember, ROTS Anakin)is that he ends up losing to Obi-wan. This ignores his defeating Assaj Ventress AND Dooku(a master saber artist and superb dueler.)
The only thing for Mace is his defeat of Jango Fett and a lame Force choke move on Grevious. Again, it's not a fair call to include the Sidious duel, which is up for debate, and to me seems thrown once sabers are done. (mace does win in saber combat, but Sid's specialty isn't dueling.)
So removing the Sidious argument, looking at raw power, midichlorians, what the creators and main charactes say, and dueling records on film (based on the strength level of opponents defeated) it's fairly clear to me that the Chozen One would wipe the floor with Master Windu, especially if he stood in the way of Anakin protecting Padme.
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MasterAnders
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/18 12:21pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Very good post!
Congratulations with you first post. 
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Hector: Prince of Troy
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rumsmuggler
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
4/18 12:32pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Good post, and welcome to the boards.
-----signature-----
" Conan, what's best in life?" " Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of the women."
W.W.L.D. What Would Lando Do
"Why is the rum always gone?"
Retcons = making the dumb stuff look even dumber.
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