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Topic:
Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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r8hitman
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
4/18 1:01pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
- Date Edited:
4/18 1:03pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
r8hitman
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sithsaber_408 posted:
Long time reader, first time poster. I actually created an account to weigh in on this. 
I don't think Mace could beat pre-suit Darth Vader.
Lots of reasons here, but I'll try to be concise.
1.) As already mentioned, Anakin IS a level 9 along with Yoda, Mace, and Sidious. A few posters have incorrectly stated that only those 3 are on the top level, wheras both George Lucas and Nic Gillard have said that Anakin is on the same level as them. So he's just as strong. This isnt going to help your argument.
First of all there are contradicting quotes from Lucas if this is true....I remember him saying that Yoda/Mace/Sidious were on a different level than any other force user. Now if you're trying to say that "strength" alone is why Anakin/Vader would win then you weaken your argument...it takes much MUCH more than just strength to win in a battle between force users.
It takes will, skill, dedication, experience, faith in whatever side of the force you choose to follow....Mace trumps Anakin in every last one of those categories.
But lets say for instance that your Lucas quote is accurate, then that still means that Anakin is only JUST AS STRONG as Mace, not stronger.(he has more "potential" but he never gets to his peak)
So Mace wins every category and then draws even with him in one so you give the victory to Anakin???  Makes no sense to me. George Lucas states "However, after all of his limbs were severed and he was extremely burned on Mustafar he lost much of his Force potential. As Darth Vader, Anakin was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor. Had he sustained none of his injuries on Mustafar he would have been twice as powerful." He also mentions elsewhere that Anakin is the most powerful force user of all time. Coupled with Sidious's line: "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us." and Obi-Wan's "You've become a far greater Jedi than I could ever hope to be." and Mace in the ROTS novel:"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger." So there we have the argument that he's on par with, if not more powerful than Yoda, Sidious, and Mace. They are equals in terms of Force power.
2.) The argument that Obi-wan (level 8, according to NG) defeats Anakin is bogus. It was the will of the force, and only because of Anakin's attachement to Obi-wan, emotional distress at having hurt his wife, and Obi-wan's years of training and fighting with Anakin that even put him on an equal ground. Still, he would've lost in the end, as clearly evidenced by his tired breathing on the floating platforms at the end of the Mustafar duel. Vader isn't even fazed. "This is the end for you my master." That was for real, and they both knew it. Anakin made a cocky mistake, but only due to the above mentioned factors already being in play did it actually result in his losing. So saying "Even obi-wan can beat him" isn't admissable in this debate, IMO. That was a fluke, and no other Jedi (or Sith) would be in that same postion, in that same timeframe against Anakin.
That wasnt a "fluke" as you call it. It was Anakin's emotions taking over and him not having control. Whether it be because he had emotional attachments to Obi-Wan and Padme or just had complete and utter hatred and disdain for Mace Windu (see how "little Ani" stared at Mace in TPM) the results would still be the same.
Anakin is an emotional wreck, and in order to defeat Mace, Yoda, or Sidious you need to be completely focused and be a true master yourself....Anakin was neither a 'true' jedi master nor a sith master.
3.) The argument that Mace is stronger for "defeating" Sidious isn't admissable either, IMO. That he actually beat Sidious is still up for debate. Lucas himself says: "Originally we just had the fight, and it got more intense and Anakin walks in, but we reshot it to have him sort of pretend to lose and it makes him more slimy, etc.." (I'm paraphrasing here, if anybody has the exact quote from the ROTS dvd commentary please throw it in here!)Sidious, "close to death" gets right up and is fine once Mace goes out the window. How much Sidious let this happen to bait Anakin hasn't been proven yet.
This is also false....Lucas confirmed a long time ago that the lightsaber duel was won by Mace Windu. Now if you havent been here that long then maybe you missed the whole debate about that, but trust me it has been confirmed and Sidious was not faking the "lightsaber portion" of the battle.
From wookipedia:The two viciously battled through Palpatine's private office and lounging room into his main office. Eventually their battle moved to the window, which was promptly shattered by their blades. Battling on the ledge above the sheer drop, Windu managed to defeat Palpatine with a well-placed kick to the face.
Windu had won the lightsaber duel, but the fight was not over.
4.) Anakin defeats Dooku, with focused anger and concentration. That's what he would use on Mace. It'd be the same Anakin that kills the Seperatist leaders in the bunker. Having already grown strong enough to hand Dooku his tail (Dooku being a powerful sith lord that pwnt Obi-Wan twice and was considered "the greatest fencer in the Order" mind you), and in the mode of "yellow eyes", I don't see Mace beating him.
Dooku is not a master. Sidious is the master remember?
And Dooku's skill level has always been up for debate because in his battle against one of the top three he came up short (no pun intended).
In the EU Dooku was supposed to have defeated a young Mace Windu in a sparring session, but dont forget, that was the EU and even then, Mace wasnt anywhere near the jedi he is by the time of the prequels.
Hell Dooku defeated a young Anakin Skywalker too. 
Even in the office, had they had a straight on duel I believe light-side Anakin would win. It's flat-out stated that he's the greatest Jedi of all time. He's the most powerfull, with the highest midi-chlorian count. By the time of ROTS, there is nobody better. Most posters don't seem to accept that, though it's stated often enough by the creators and all the main characters.
No, the problem is you keep thinking that power alone is going to win a fight for Anakin.
By the time of ROTS do you think Anakin could defeat Yoda...
Do you think he could defeat Sidious....
If you think he can defeat Mace, then you're basically saying you believe him to be capable of beating these two also, or just blatantly ignoring the fact that Lucas has placed Mace on their level.
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maderic
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
4/21 3:24pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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I'm still at a loss to discover why people (other than out of just sheer fandom for Mace Windu, a character I really have grown to despise--he symbolizes everything that is wrong with the Jedi Order) think that Mace beat Sidious. It's rather clear that Palpatine was just playing with him the entire time, stringing the fight along long enough to get Anakin into the room. Smoke and mirrors, really; just a pageant for Anakin to step in on a Jedi Master trying to assassinate the Supreme Chancellor.
Mace didn't win that fight. He lost before he even began.
I agree with what SX3 said: Vader (suit or not) would've wiped the walls with Windu.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/21 3:31pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
- Date Edited:
4/21 8:43pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Dark_Jedi_Kenobi
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Why do people think Mace won the lightsaber fight?
It's because of the script, Lucas on the DVD commentary, and the evidence in the film itself ( the boot ).
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sithsaber_408
Registered:
Apr '08
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Date Posted:
4/21 5:31pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Aye, I believe that too, but who's to say that Sids was really trying to beat him with sabers?
In fact, doesn't he say in the novels that sith use them to humiliate the Jedi, but in fact had grown beyond them?
The scene plays out quite like the poster above you says: He's obviously faking at the lightning point ("Ohh... please, don't let him kill me. I can't, I'm too... weak.") 
Then he jumps up just fine: "POWER! Unlimited POWEERRR!" and sends Mace right out the window.
Hardly a demonstration of Mace's uber Force power or saber skills.
Anakin is stronger, younger, has higher midi's, more Force power, is a better duelist, and when focused rage of the darkside flows through him, his enemies fall. (see Dooku, who while many argue was "only" the sith apprentice also forget that he was a Jedi MASTER before that, and the best fencer in the Order.)
I see no other evidence for ROTS Anakin losing to Windu than the botched Sids/posse fight.
I see plenty of evidence for ROTS Anaking beating Windu, much of listed in my last post on the previous page.
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maderic
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
4/21 5:32pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
- Date Edited:
4/21 8:44pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Dark_Jedi_Kenobi
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
Why do people think Mace won the lightsaber fight?
It's because of the script, Lucas on the DVD commentary, and the evidence in the film itself ( the boot ).
As far as the 'boot' is concerned, if you look at Sidious' posture when he gets kicked, it's clear to see that he's backing up and staggering intentionally. He throws his lightsaber away; it doesn't just get knocked out of his hand. He practically stages a fall into the corner of the window and waits for Mace to approach. Furthermore, this is supported by the looks on Sidious' face when Anakin is there during the angel/devil scene where Mace and Palpatine are trying to coax Anakin over to their respective sides. The fact that as soon as Mace is disarmed by Anakin--the action Sidious was waiting for; Anakin's induction to the dark side--he springs to life and blasts Mace out the Windu.
I don't see how one can rationally say Mace won the fight and that Sidious wasn't feigning defeat.
I'll have to watch the commentary again to see what you're referencing, however.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/21 6:42pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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I am referring to the lightsaber portion of the battle, I thought I was clear on that.
Lucas and the script make it clear that Palpatine was really trying to destroy Mace, that Mace forced Palpatine to drop his weapon, and that Mace overpowered Palpatine. That's all, folks.
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maderic
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
4/21 8:11pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
I am referring to the lightsaber portion of the battle, I thought I was clear on that.
Lucas and the script make it clear that Palpatine was really trying to destroy Mace, that Mace forced Palpatine to drop his weapon, and that Mace overpowered Palpatine. That's all, folks.
The Script posted:
In the heat of battle, MACE cuts the window behind the Chancellor's desk, and it crashes away. MACE is forced out onto the ledge, which is twenty stories up. They fight over the precipice. ANAKIN arrives to see PALPATINE and MACE fighting.
They stop as MACE forces PALPATINE to drop his sword. PALPATINE and MACE start yelling at each other.
That's about all I can find to support your claim. Watching the actual fight, however, shows us something else. Sidious is stringing Mace along front the onset. He only means business when he wastes Kolar, Tinn, and Fisto in a heartbeat. The rest is letting Mace kill some time until Anakin shows up to set up his fall to the dark side.
Anything else is interpretation seemingly induced out of fandom for Mace Windu.
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I'm a proud hater of 98% of the Expanded Universe.
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sithsaber_408
Registered:
Apr '08
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Date Posted:
4/21 10:46pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Agreed.
And if we're going with "GL says" then we have GL saying that Anakin is the most powerful being in the galaxy, period.
This is all well established, I thought.
The ONLYperson who beats pre-suit anakin (sith or jedi version, it doesn't matter) is Obi-wan, due to the will of the force, anakin's emotional state of just having hurt his wife and felt betrayed by her, Obi-wan's years of training and side-by-side combat, and Anakin making a bad judgement out of arrogance, and ...necessity of plot.
It's 100% accurate to say that the circumstances surrounding his defeat to Obi-wan are singular and special, and nobody else in any OTHER circumstances (this includes Obi) would be able to best him, in ROTS pre-suit mode.
Again, I believe Mace beat Palps with sabers, but that hardly equals being able to beat Anakin with sabers.
Anakin beat Dooku with sabers, which speaks volumes of his ability to handle Windu.
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Loco_for_Lucas
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
4/21 11:06pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
- Date Edited:
4/21 11:12pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Loco_for_Lucas
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Hmmm, it truly depends on the situation.
Had Windu struck down Palpatine before Anakin arrived, it would have been an interesting situation. Anakin would have been an emotional wreck at that point, having lost, what he thought, was the only way to save Padme.
Something like, "NO! I NEEDED HIM!"
Mace would have looked at him and said something like, "Anakin, he was a Dark Lord of the Sith! He would have destroyed us all." With Anakin, irrational, rambling on, "No! It's all lost...I've got nothing! It's all your fault!"
Mace would have probably stood firm and tried to order Anakin, "Anakin! It is done! Stand down!"
Anakin would have, most likely, lashed out and attacked Windu.
The thing is, Anakin would not have been able to tap into the Dark Side as well as he had by the time of Mustafar. Anakin would have been powerful, and Windu would have probably shown restraint in the confrontation. Anakin wasn't "deemed" lost at that point yet. He hadn't crossed over, and he may have been able to be talked down, but that's probably wouldn't be the case.
In my opinion, Anakin would have been sloppy at the idea of having lost the opportunity to save Padme. It would have required Mace to say that Padme was not beyond saving yet, but Mace didn't know a thing about Anakin's life outside the order, not about the boy's attachment to the girl. Basically, this outburst would be a surprise to Windu, and he'd have probably assumed Anakin was in cahoots with the Sith; with such devastation, Windu may have assumed Anakin's attachment was to Palpatine, having been a confidant he'd just lost. Anakin would not confess his affair with Padme, so Windu would probably assume Anakin had gotten too close to the Chancellor and, not seeing a further connection, see the need to destroy Anakin from an objective point of view.
What happens from here?
Anakin's greatest dueling came when he was truly focused on the moment. He fails when he loses focus and lets passion get in the way.
In this case, Anakin would not have focus since he wouldn't know, just yet, how to tap into his dark feelings and draw power. Without Palpatine there for guidance, Anakin would have probably been struck down by a composed Mace Windu. At least that's what I think in that particular scenario.
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MasterAnders
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/22 1:49am
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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sithsaber_408 posted:
Agreed.
And if we're going with "GL says" then we have GL saying that Anakin is the most powerful being in the galaxy, period.
This is all well established, I thought.
The ONLYperson who beats pre-suit anakin (sith or jedi version, it doesn't matter) is Obi-wan, due to the will of the force, anakin's emotional state of just having hurt his wife and felt betrayed by her, Obi-wan's years of training and side-by-side combat, and Anakin making a bad judgement out of arrogance, and ...necessity of plot.
It's 100% accurate to say that the circumstances surrounding his defeat to Obi-wan are singular and special, and nobody else in any OTHER circumstances (this includes Obi) would be able to best him, in ROTS pre-suit mode.
Again, I believe Mace beat Palps with sabers, but that hardly equals being able to beat Anakin with sabers.
Anakin beat Dooku with sabers, which speaks volumes of his ability to handle Windu.
Good there are other people who see the problably realistic outcome.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/22 5:02am
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
- Date Edited:
4/22 5:04am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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maderic posted:
That's about all I can find to support your claim.
maderic posted:
Anything else is interpretation seemingly induced out of fandom for Mace Windu.
It's not Windu fandom. It's Lucas saying on the DVD commentary that Mace overpowers Palpatine. There's also the novel, and I don't have the passage in front of me, but the novel's description of the scene does not make it look like Palpatine threw the saber fight.
sithsaber_408 posted:
And if we're going with "GL says" then we have GL saying that Anakin is the most powerful being in the galaxy, period.
Oh really? When/where did he say that? I thought he said Palpatine was the strongest Force-user.
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r8hitman
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
4/23 9:15am
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
- Date Edited:
4/23 5:00pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Dark_Jedi_Kenobi
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Exactly.
Mace legitimately beat Sidious.
Lucas confirmed this folks.
Accept it.
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MasterAnders
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/23 9:59am
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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True!
Mace did well against Sidious, but in the end I still belive he would have lost if Anakin haden't interfered.
Anakin was the only one capable of killing Sidious
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r8hitman
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
4/23 10:50am
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
- Date Edited:
4/23 10:54am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
r8hitman
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Well I dont believe he would have "lost" but he wouldnt have killed him.
If Anakin never showed up, Sidious probably would have just allowed himself to be arrested after he lost the "physical" fight.
It's not like he was really in danger from the Senate that he controls.
He kept resisting because Anakin had showed up and he wanted to force Anakin to make a decision right on the spot.
But dont forget Mace was STILL trying to place Sidious under arrest, even after he defeated him in the lightsaber duel. It was only after Sidious continued to resist that Mace finally realized that arrest was pointless. 
EDIT:
And if he didnt allow the arrest he would have simply rolled over and dropped out of the window and made his escape.
But however it would have happened, no matter how many times Mace beat the crap out of Sidious (hell, he could have beaten him to a pulp) but something would have happened that would have prevented him from killing him.
It wasnt his destiny.
But by no means does this say that Mace didnt win the fight....
hell, IMO Yoda was winning his fight, but he would never have killed Sidious.
It wasnt his destiny either.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
4/23 11:26am
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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While Mace Windu is a strong, skilled and experienced Jedi Master, he is still going up against someone who is stronger and filled with a greater reserve or anger than he has. Anakin could very well beat Mace in a straight up battle, so long as he does not make the same mistakes that he did against Obi-wan. Namely getting so mad and overconfident that he makes a mistake which Mace can then take advantage of. That is the only reason Anakin ever lost the duel on Mustafar and it would be his downfall against Mace, unless he had better control.
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