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Topic:
Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
4/24 1:48pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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I think another thing to remember is that Mace had emotional problems too. His Vaapad use was an edge of control technique which would only make things worse. He was as liable as Anakin to goof up, so that would give Anakin still another advantage. Like Anakin said in ROTS novel: "Vaapad this you..."
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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Darth_Davi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/24 2:02pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
It should probably be mentioned that Senate pods levitate on their own without Force users having to be there.
But simple repulsor lifts to keep them floating isn't going to change their mass at all, or the inertia involved in Sidious chucking them at Yoda in the first place. Yoda would first have to dissipate the forward momentum of the pods, and then throw it back at him. Granted, that might explain the ease at which he could rotate the pod, once he had its momentum stopped...but, stopping something like that, catching it in the Force, and then throwing it right back requires a lot of energy. With the X-Wing, he is levitating something that isn't resisting in anyway, other than gravity. The Senate pod worked counter to Yoda's Force use, until he applied enough Force to stop its forward momentum coming towards him. He had to cancel that energy, and then apply his own. With the X-Wing, other than normal rules of gravity, and added weight of the water on top of it, it wasn't offering any additional resistance. IE, levitating an object at rest should be an easier task than catching an object coming towards you, and then reversing its course.
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What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon?
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
4/26 10:53am
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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MasterAnders posted:
He seems to have more than enough control to own dooku.
But you never know... The best dosen't always win 
That's because Anakin did not go to the dark side when he defeated and killed Dooku. Anakin was still holding back like Dooku said. It is only once Anakin has pledged himself to the dark side of the Force and killed using it, without any hesitation and without any mercy, does he begin to grow powerful with the Force. And when that happens, combined with his inability to control his 13 years of growing resentment and rage, does he have trouble defeating Obi-wan. It is when his power controls him, not Anakin controlling his power, that he loses. This is why he loses on Mustafar.
I've said this before and I'll say it again, never fight angry. That's one of the first lessons of combat. You can have anger, but it must be a focused anger. You must control your anger when fighting, not let your anger control you. This will lead to one becoming blind and unfocused. There is no discipline. It's why Ali was one of the greatest boxers, because he would upset and enrage his opponets, causing them to be sloppy in the ring. Those who didn't fall for his taunts managed to either beat him or force Ali to rethink his strategy. It's the same way here. In fighting Mace Windu, Anakin does have anger, but it is not as passionate and hostile as it is towards Obi-wan. In the OT, we see that Vader has mastered better control save for when Luke pushes it too far. Otherwise, he does not fight recklessly.
Anakin can beat Mace, pre-suit, if he fights like he does in the OT. With the same precision and control. Mace defeated Palpatine because he got in a lucky shot with his kick. He saw an opening and took advantage of it. This is what happens when you have two disciplined opponets fighting each other. That is what it comes down to with full contact fighting.
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
4/26 12:46pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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I agree with most of what sinister is saying, but Vader's chances would be very slim. He's about as good a duelist, but Mace would find that opening and get a "lucky" strike (which is absolutely absurd to say, unless you also think Sideous was lucky that Yoda fell on a pod with no railing?)
Mace is too calculated for Anakin, and something tells me that Anakin holds a great deal of contempt for Mace deep down - something I'm sure Mace could use to his advantage. If OT-Vader had met any of the prominent Jedi from the OT, he would surely lose in a straight up lightsaber-duel...
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/26 4:37pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
- Date Edited:
4/26 4:38pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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>>If OT-Vader had met any of the prominent Jedi from the OT, he would surely lose in a straight up lightsaber-duel...
O RLY? 
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
"I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude." - Kirk Lazarus
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Eternity85
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
4/26 7:09pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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I dont know where people get all this. Anakin would have defeated Mace, where does everyone have the, "Mace is the best from"? Is it because Sam J is playing Mace? Anakin is the most powerful jedi in his time, anyone else than Obi Wan would be in serious trouble!
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Live life as if your were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
4/26 7:30pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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I agree. Anakin would take him...hands tied behind his back and blindfolded even...
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
4/27 10:29am
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Where do we get it from 
Could it be that the OS says Mace is up there with Yoda and Sideous.
Lucas said that Mace legitimately overpowered Sideous, and it was only AFTER Sideous was defeated he began his acted and exaggerated his weakness!
Anakin refers to Mace in terms of power: "[Obi-Wan] is as powerful as Master Windu and as wise as Master Yoda"
It has been asserted that he was a level 9 swordsman - Anakin had just reached that level after he turned to the dark-side, but as we know, he couldn't control it properly - Mace could!
Pre-suit Vader couldn't beat Mace because he just wasn't there yet. Yoda and Mace were the two most powerful Jedi, end of story.
"Powerful to fight this sith lord you are not" Yoda to OBW (strange that he thought OBW could take Anakin then...)
Look at Yoda vs Sideous and then look at Anakin vs OBW: if you didn't get Lucas' intention of having Sideous and Yoda leagues above OBW and Anakin you must have been watching it with your eyes closed while listening to Spice Girls with ear plugs
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Eternity85
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
4/27 12:49pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
- Date Edited:
4/27 12:50pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Eternity85
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So what if i enjoy listening to spice girls while i look at Star wars, im sure there are lot`s of Spice girls fans around here
But seriously.. what i did not understand was not related to Mace` power, he is up there with Yoda and Sidious, yes. But rather his power compared to Anakin, and thats where i dont agree with you. To bad Lucas never showed us on screen, but i think Anakin was suppose to fight Mace, like in the video game, but Lucas had enough lightsaber fights already, and he was short on time, so he did it a different way.
But if he had choosen to let them fight, then who would have won that battle? It would be a close fight, but its no doubt about who would be the winner!
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Live life as if your were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
4/28 1:50pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Oh, Spice girls is always my first choice when watching SW - the duels just get so much better when I hear "tell me what you want, what you really, really want" in the background in every Anakin scene 
I would love to watch Anakin and Mace battle it out against each other - but Anakin wouldn't have to win. He could still lose and have Sideous save his arse (Two Sith against one Jedi - sweeeeet  ) - which would give Anakin just that next reason for him to joins Sideous - to become powerful enough to be stronger than ANY Jedi.
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
4/28 6:56pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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Well I've said before, any Jedi can beat another any day. But we keep flipping back between Pure Power Anakin and Anakin as we know him. The emotional wreck who met Obi-Wan didn't likely have a chance against anyone that he had a smidgeon of respect for. But a pure power, determined Anakin would win in my opinion.
The thing is, it isn't just the dueling - it is the whole Force deal. Mace was not "Forcing" it well in Palpy's office or he would have sensed Anakin before he struck his arm off. Yoda sensed the clones about to rattle him with blaster bolts - but Mace was off in I-Am-going-to-kill-Palpy Land and Anakin disarmed him (of arm and saber).
So there ya go, anyone can fail. Mace failed against Anakin, but it could have gone the other way if it were Mace v. Emo Ani.
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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SaberSlash
Registered:
Apr '08
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Date Posted:
4/29 10:55pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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I have to go with experience. I do not think anyone doubts Anakin's pure power. However, what the Prequels establish is that Anakin is pure reaction and force and could not control his anger. More importantly, his arrogance, rather than his cunning, drives his fighting style. Obiwan was always thinking a step ahead against Anakin; while Anakin was always thinking about the instant kill.
Mace knew that he could not overpower Sidious so he shattered the window and took Sidious off his game a bit, kept his cool and then dropped the boot. That is experience. Anakin had Mace on pure power, but in my view, Mace was powerful enough to hold off Anakin's aggression, until that aggression (and arrogance) would open up an oppurtunity for Mace's patience to take advantage of.
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
4/30 2:50pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
- Date Edited:
4/30 2:53pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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But that too is dependent on Mace making no errors of his own. He made a big error in Palpatine's office and Anakin swooped in and chopped his arm off. If he'd been in tune with the Force, that would have never happened to him - just as it didn't happen to Yoda when the Clones tried to kill him and his back was to them. Mace made the fatal mistake of eliminating his surround-sound vision of the living force and all of his concentration was upon killing Sidious (who was not attacking him at the time). Mace either didn't hear or ignored Anakin say "I NEED HIM" - the fact that Mace didn't address that claim says that his focus was too centered on his goal of breaking the Jedi code to kill Sidious.
So sure, Anakin couldn't make the mistake of falling prey to his arrogance or emotion in a fight against Mace in order to win; but Mace too would have the same problem - he would have to remain focused. One could say that he would remain absolutely focused in a fight with Anakin - but that I would say is untrue because as we saw, in a fight with Sidious - the Master Dark Lord of the Sith where all of his force awareness was very much needed, he failed.
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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SaberSlash
Registered:
Apr '08
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Date Posted:
4/30 3:14pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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But that too is dependent on Mace making no errors of his own. He made a big error in Palpatine's office and Anakin swooped in and chopped his arm off. If he'd been in tune with the Force, that would have never happened to him - just as it didn't happen to Yoda when the Clones tried to kill him and his back was to them. Mace made the fatal mistake of eliminating his surround-sound vision of the living force and all of his concentration was upon killing Sidious (who was not attacking him at the time). Mace either didn't hear or ignored Anakin say "I NEED HIM" - the fact that Mace didn't address that claim says that his focus was too centered on his goal of breaking the Jedi code to kill Sidious.
Yes, but we are talking about one on one in this forum. Mace, was very narrow minded in the above situation, but in the actual one on one joust with Sidious, he was cautious, focused and calculating (shattering the window to distract Sidious' focus), and thus very disciplined. Anakin's extreme arrogance in his power was a great strength, but it was also his greatest weakness. Mace would have capitalized on that arrogance (as did Obiwan) in a one on one situation, because Anakin did not have control over his reckless anger as of yet.
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
4/30 8:43pm
Subject:
RE: Could Pre-Suit Darth Vader defeat Mace Windu?
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I was speaking about one on one. Another person doesn't have to be present for Mace to be distracted. Why should Anakin be certain to be distracted and Mace would be certain not to? He screwed up big time in the office after all.
But think about it, why would Anakin be arrogant or unable to control his emotions with Mace? He had little love for Mace as it was. Why wouldn't he face Mace with the same determination and purpose that he faced Dooku? And if he did, I don't think Mace would have a chance, full concentration or not. Mace was simply not as in tune with the Force and he didn't have the foresight Anakin did. That would be the end of it. The thing is, Anakin wouldn't have the same arrogance toward him as he did Obi-Wan. Anakin thought he was better than ALL Jedi, but that was nothing compared to his NEED to beat Obi-Wan which was much more personal. Dooku was no loser, he was awesome - yet Anakin took him down. It would be the same with Mace I would think.
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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