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Topic:
Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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sith_rising
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
12/2/07 5:36pm
Subject:
Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Hopefully we can put something to bed here that's running on about three threads right now.
If Obi-Wan is superior to Darth Maul because he won the duel, then Obi-Wan is superior to Anakin Skywalker because of the results on Mustafar. You can't say, "Obi-Wan got lucky, it was a fluke. Normally, Anakin was the superior fighter and just had a bad day" and then say, "Maul lost to Obi-Wan, therefore he wasn't as good as Obi-Wan, despite the fact that Darth Maul was clearly winning the duel".
It's like this: say boxer A is just absolutely hammering boxer B for every round, outsticking him, jabbing, hooking, moving, has better stamina, is barely breaking a sweat, not losing his cool, making every shot count, bobbing and weaving rather than absorbing, etc. Boxer A lands the critical overhand right. Boxer B, eyes swollen shut and hazy with blood flowing from his cut eyebrows, swings a wild haymaker as he's falling to the mat and knocks out boxer A. Boxer B has won the fight.
There's a rematch in one year. Who are you going to place your thousand-dollar bet on?
If you say that Boxer B is the superior fighter because the result is everything, regardless of the fighter's performance, you must acknowledge that Obi-Wan is better than Maul. You must also acknowledge that Obi-Wan is, unquestionably and absolutely, better than Anakin Skywalker, despite Midichlorian count, what Mace says, what Sidious says, even what Lucas says.
But if you say that Boxer A is the superior fighter, and that Anakin Skywalker was better than Kenobi, you must also acknowledge that Darth Maul is a better fighter than Obi-Wan Kenobi.
You can't have it both ways.
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"My mentor taught me everything about the Force, even the nature of the Dark Side"
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Amrita_Glittersong
Registered:
Jan '07
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Date Posted:
12/2/07 5:53pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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I think it depends on how you decide if someone's a better fighter. Sabre skills, or ingenuity, or skill in the Force, etc.
I would say that both Maul and Anakin are better technical fighters when it come to the straight out lightsabre fighting. However, it should say something that twice, Obi-Wan has come out the winner despite that. It's not really a fluke if it happens more than once. Obi-Wan seems to be the best of the three at figuirng out how to save himself from the brink, and how to use the situation, whatever it might be, to his advantage.
While both Anakin and Maul out-fought Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan out-thought them both. I wouldn't say Anakin and Maul are the superior fighters while Obi-Wan isn't, nor would I say Obi-Wan was better than the two of them. They all have their strengths that apply at different times, and in rematches, I think either matchup (Obi vs Anakin or Obi vs Maul) could go either way. The winner is not clear cut in either direction.
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Deceptions: http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=26426189 My SW videos: http://youtube.com/profile?user=Glittersong "I was trying to sound pompous." "Do you really think you need to try?" -Obi-Wan Kenobi and Siri Tachi
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
12/2/07 6:10pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Vader was far more powerful than Obi-Wan, yet Obi-Wan won. Maul was equal to Obi-Wan with Kenobi holding his own and forcing Maul into a retreat(which he never did with Vader.) Maul was more skilled with a lightsaber than Obi-Wan, but was inferior in terms of situational awareness. Vader was more powerful than Obi-Wan was superior to Vader in that specific match up even though there were many opponents that Vader could defeat and Obi-Wan couldn't. It's not black and white.
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"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
12/2/07 6:25pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Master_Starwalker posted:
Vader was far more powerful than Obi-Wan
I don't think he was far more powerful. Although he did have the power of the dark side.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
12/2/07 6:28pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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I don't think far more powerful is consistent with the film though Vader is supposedly on Palpatine's level which would make him far more powerful.
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"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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Darth_Davi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
12/2/07 6:31pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
- Date Edited:
12/2/07 6:34pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth_Davi
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Since the films are just that, films, with fight sequences specifically designed to entertain the audience, rather than depict a realistic fight (ie, Grievous logically has no defense against a Force user, yet, fight takes longer than the 5 seconds Kenobi needed to simply crush his armor) we have to look at other factors. Darth Maul was played by a martial arts expert, Ray Park. Ok, Lucas cast someone who was actually capable of doing cool things. Why do the OT duels look weak in comparison? Because none of the actors were trained properly to give a well choreographed duel, and Lucas didn't understand how much better those duels could have been if he had the technology to make them so. In other words, the films do not necessarily accurately portray skill levels, if based on duels alone. Had the PT come first, in 1977, 81 and 83, those duels would look like crap, and the OT's duels would be the ones using the CGI, and employing better stunt choreography.
There is plenty of other evidence to solve the debate though, not the least of which is the creator of the entire Star Wars galaxy, the one who created all of the characters involved, stating that Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is pretty much the end all be all of Force users. We have the statements from other characters acknowledging Anakin's power, including Sidious, who would have first hand knowledge about the skill levels of Maul, Dooku and Anakin. We have a Jedi swordsman in Mace, acknowledged to be one of the all time greatest, in the novelization say that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi ever. We have Sidious openly stating that Anakin would become "greater than all of us". We do not have any statements from Sidious claiming that about Maul.
But, if you want to go the results route, we can do that too. Maul, in the films, kills Qui-Gon, which is a great start, but then blows it against Obi-Wan big time, bringing his career as a Sith to a very abrupt end. A Sith Apprentice losing to a mere Padawan is simply unforgivable.
Anakin/Vader meanwhile, at age 18, gives Dooku a good run before losing. A loss that he avenges in ROTS, where he states that he has grown twice as powerful since the last time they fought...and, once Anakin taps into the dark side, its hard to argue with him. Once Anakin taps the dark side, he dominates Dooku. Then, we have the Jedi temple. While the actual fighting inside is not seen, it is implied that Anakin killed numerous Jedi Masters, Knights, and Padawans. While the actual death toll isn't known, by age 21, Darth Vader already has multiple Jedi notches on his belt to Maul's one. He then has an epic duel with Obi-Wan, his master, who knows all his moves, instincts, and drives him back and back, until making the same mistake Maul did...underestimating Obi-Wan. However, unlike with Maul, Kenobi was a Master, fully tuned with the Force at the time, and had the advantage of knowing exactly how Anakin fights. Kenobi wins because he has personal knowledge of Anakin's fighting style. Without that, Anakin/Vader mops the floor with him. Kenobi defeats him, leaves him wounded, for dead. Then, after he gets into the suit, Vader continues to hunt surviving Jedi, adding more notches to his belt. He also eventually avenges his loss to Kenobi as well. Did Kenobi intentionally lose, or did he see the curtains on the wall, and knowing he was going to lose anyway, choose that moment to provide an escape for Luke, Han, Leia etc? Could Kenobi have beaten Vader in ANH legitimately? I am gonna say hell no. Either way, both of the two duelists that have a win over Darth Vader lose their lives in the rematch. When all is said and done, Darth Maul can claim one victory over a Jedi, while Darth Vader can claim multiple victories over Jedi, and not counting his own internal battle, he manages to kill two Sith Lords too. Not too shabby.
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What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon?
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide!
It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
12/2/07 6:36pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Anakin certainly seems to think he's more powerful than Palpatine while talking to Padme on Mustafar. But is this actually the case? I thought Lucas had said that Palpatine was the strongest Force-user in the saga. Anakin may not know the full extent of Palpatine's power.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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LemmingLord
Title: PT Manager & CLUE Host
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
12/2/07 6:39pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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I see what you are saying; I guess I see these "lucky" outcomes as "the will of the force." So really... If there's a duel, the one who wins is the one who furthers the force's agenda... heheheheh
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LemmingLord
Take a Leap of Faith and Follow Me
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
12/2/07 6:46pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Darth_Davi posted:
Either way, both of the two duelists that have a win over Darth Vader lose their lives in the rematch.
Well, other than one man.
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Anakin certainly seems to think he's more powerful than Palpatine while talking to Padme on Mustafar. But is this actually the case? I thought Lucas had said that Palpatine was the strongest Force-user in the saga. Anakin may not know the full extent of Palpatine's power.
I know that Gillard said that Vader was a 9 like Palp, Yoda, and Mace as well as that Lucas has said his injuries were why Vader was no longer as powerful as Palpatine. I do think it makes Obi-Wan's victory look strange though.
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"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
12/2/07 6:46pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
- Date Edited:
12/2/07 6:48pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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Darth_Davi posted:
There is plenty of other evidence to solve the debate though, not the least of which is the creator of the entire Star Wars galaxy, the one who created all of the characters involved, stating that Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is pretty much the end all be all of Force users. We have the statements from other characters acknowledging Anakin's power, including Sidious, who would have first hand knowledge about the skill levels of Maul, Dooku and Anakin. We have a Jedi swordsman in Mace, acknowledged to be one of the all time greatest, in the novelization say that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi ever. We have Sidious openly stating that Anakin would become "greater than all of us". We do not have any statements from Sidious claiming that about Maul.
All the dialogue in the PT about Anakin's extreme power is phrased in the future tense. And Lucas' statements in the commentaries also refer to Anakin's potential.
In the novelization ( which is EU ), Mace does not say that Anakin is the "most powerful Jedi ever". He says that "Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive" ( I'm not even sure that he's including Yoda in that statement ). Later in the same book, Anakin refers to himself as "one of the most powerful Jedi", a less hyperbolic claim.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
12/2/07 6:48pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Master_Starwalker posted:
I know that Gillard said that Vader was a 9
I thought that was just lightsaber-skill level.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
12/2/07 6:50pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
I know that Gillard said that Vader was a 9
I thought that was just lightsaber-skill level.
It is, but if the skill difference between an 8 and a 9 as Gillard says it is that would be a huge advantage for Vader.
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"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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Darth_Davi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
12/2/07 6:59pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Master_Starwalker posted:
Darth_Davi posted:
Either way, both of the two duelists that have a win over Darth Vader lose their lives in the rematch.
Well, other than one man.
I stand corrected, LOL...although, you could argue that in this case, it was Luke avenging his loss to Vader earlier...But, you can't hold a dad accountable when he realizes his kid is finally better than he is at something...
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What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon?
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide!
It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
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Sitara
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
12/3/07 1:00am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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A good topic Sith_Rising, and I concur with your points. You really can't have it both ways. I personally think its pretty obvious who the winner on average would be in a fight between the three, which is Darth Maul. The screenplay makes it obvious, as does the simple fact is that all Sith Lords have their niche, Maul's is lightsaber combat.
Also, the Starwars PREQUEL CHRONICLES, written by Sansweet states that Darth Maul was second only to Sidious in lightsaber combat. You can't get more official than that.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
12/3/07 8:37am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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You can given that Lucas has said
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor, If Anakin hadn't got all beat-up, he could've beat the Emperor."
and Gillard has said
"Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented -- but he hasn't learned the mental side of it."- Gillard in the article "Dueling Jedi".
and
"Sidious is a level nine (out of ten). On this film, Obi is eight-he's moved up-Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious. Once you get to eight, you have a Pandora's box. You could go any way with it. The way not to go is the dark side. But it would tempt you, because that would jump you right past the others. So you need to arrive at level eight at the right age-not as young as Anakin. That young, the dark side is too tempting."
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"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
12/3/07 9:13am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Sitara posted:
A good topic Sith_Rising, and I concur with your points. You really can't have it both ways. I personally think its pretty obvious who the winner on average would be in a fight between the three, which is Darth Maul. The screenplay makes it obvious, as does the simple fact is that all Sith Lords have their niche, Maul's is lightsaber combat.
Also, the Starwars PREQUEL CHRONICLES, written by Sansweet states that Darth Maul was second only to Sidious in lightsaber combat. You can't get more official than that.
And if I may add that in the Novel for TPM, Qui Gon's opinion of Maul was that the Zabrak was the "best he'd ever seen" in terms of light saber skills.
Maul gets bashed because he didn't say much.
But when ur as good as he was, who needs to talk?
One other note, Maul's bio states that he "mastered" more than one form.
That means he didn't just learn saber skills, he excelled.
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Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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