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Topic:
Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
12/4/07 5:44am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Master_Starwalker posted:
I think that Obi-Wan could have. He'd have no trouble with the Vigos, etc. As for Mighella, I see no reason to believe Obi-Wan wouldn't block it with his saber as he blocks Dooku's in AotC.
I'm saying a strait switch, so Kenobi wouldn't have a chance to block it. Thats why I said Mace has the only shot.
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Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
12/4/07 6:54am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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SithStarSlayer posted:
I'm saying a strait switch, so Kenobi wouldn't have a chance to block it. Thats why I said Mace has the only shot.
Yeah, but are you sure that Maul could do what OBW did against Maul, or against Vader? You are being very hypothetical now 
Perhaps OBW wouldn't need to block it with his body? But you're talking highly EU now, and as I recall from watching the comics, OBW can block laser bolts with his hands, so who knows what he's capable of...
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Sitara
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
12/4/07 9:53am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Master_Starwalker posted:
You can given that Lucas has said
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor, If Anakin hadn't got all beat-up, he could've beat the Emperor."
and Gillard has said
"Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented -- but he hasn't learned the mental side of it."- Gillard in the article "Dueling Jedi".
and
"Sidious is a level nine (out of ten). On this film, Obi is eight-he's moved up-Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious. Once you get to eight, you have a Pandora's box. You could go any way with it. The way not to go is the dark side. But it would tempt you, because that would jump you right past the others. So you need to arrive at level eight at the right age-not as young as Anakin. That young, the dark side is too tempting."
But Maul is not quoted there. How do you know he wasn't a 9 or 10? Sansweet has already stated Maul was #2 in the entire Galaxy, Lucas and GIllard do not disagree with that. Its proof enough for me. (go buy and read a copy of PREQUELS if you think I am lying).
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Amrita_Glittersong
Registered:
Jan '07
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Date Posted:
12/4/07 10:11am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Sitara posted:
But Maul is not quoted there. How do you know he wasn't a 9 or 10? Sansweet has already stated Maul was #2 in the entire Galaxy, Lucas and GIllard do not disagree with that. Its proof enough for me. (go buy and read a copy of PREQUELS if you think I am lying).
I'm pretty sure it's been said that the only people on par with Sidious are Mace and Yoda; in other words, they're the only other 9s until Anakin goes dark. Maul being a 10 is absolutely nuts, as even Sidious isn't. Obi being a level 8, that's probably the very highest Maul could be estimated as, since simply being angry was enough for Obi-Wan to begin winning the straight-out lightsabre fight with Maul in TPM (where, obviously, he wasn't an 8 yet.)
Not to mention that the books take some liberties. Is this the TPM noveliziation you're mentioning?
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Deceptions: http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=26426189 My SW videos: http://youtube.com/profile?user=Glittersong "I was trying to sound pompous." "Do you really think you need to try?" -Obi-Wan Kenobi and Siri Tachi
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Darth_Davi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
12/4/07 11:15am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Sitara posted:
But Maul is not quoted there. How do you know he wasn't a 9 or 10? Sansweet has already stated Maul was #2 in the entire Galaxy, Lucas and GIllard do not disagree with that. Its proof enough for me. (go buy and read a copy of PREQUELS if you think I am lying).
Okay, lets assume for argument's sake, that Maul was a 10. If he was a perfect 10 at dueling, then he is an even bigger moron for losing to Kenobi. The tougher you claim Maul is, the more of an incompetent boob he becomes by losing to a padawan...so, have it your way. If Maul was a 10, his loss is worse than Michigan losing to Appalachian State, and deserves even more ridicule. So, either Maul got beat by a Jedi Padawan who was capable of using his head, or he gave us one of the all time greatest choke jobs ever. Personally, I would minimize the skills of Maul to make his defeat less troubling, but if you want to maintain he was an uberbadass, be my guest...it just makes his loss look even worse. Instead of losing to a worthy opponent, he becomes the galaxy's greatest choke artist...
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What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon?
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide!
It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
12/4/07 12:46pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
- Date Edited:
12/4/07 12:47pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Starwalker
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SithStarSlayer posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
I think that Obi-Wan could have. He'd have no trouble with the Vigos, etc. As for Mighella, I see no reason to believe Obi-Wan wouldn't block it with his saber as he blocks Dooku's in AotC.
I'm saying a strait switch, so Kenobi wouldn't have a chance to block it. Thats why I said Mace has the only shot.
Why wouldn't he block it? Part of the problem is also that Obi-Wan wouldn't fight in the same way Maul did. He'd be more cautious and scope the place out first unless Qui-Gon was with him.
Sitara posted:
But Maul is not quoted there. How do you know he wasn't a 9 or 10? Sansweet has already stated Maul was #2 in the entire Galaxy, Lucas and GIllard do not disagree with that. Its proof enough for me. (go buy and read a copy of PREQUELS if you think I am lying).
I don't think you're lying I just think it's contradicted by the above and TPM since Obi-Wan who was presumably at best a 6 in TPM beat Maul and was able to force the Dark Lord to back peddle for part of their duel. Maul being even an 8 makes him look far worse as it has him losing to a duelist who shouldn't be able to even touch him. If however Maul is say, a 7 then he simply lost to an opponent who was able to hold his own against him but was defeatable. I think what makes the most sense is that Obi-Wan was a 5 or 6 and Maul was a 6 or 7. Maul does well until Obi-Wan draws on the Dark Side which boosts his ability and allows him to cut Maul's saber in half.
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"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
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sith_rising
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
12/4/07 2:06pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Gillard's lightsaber scale completely went out the window when Obi-Wan carved up Anakin on Mustafar.
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"My mentor taught me everything about the Force, even the nature of the Dark Side"
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
12/4/07 4:20pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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sith_rising posted:
Gillard's lightsaber scale completely went out the window when Obi-Wan carved up Anakin on Mustafar.
A lightsaber scale is not a deterministic guarantee of winning all fights against someone lower down on the scale.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
12/4/07 4:42pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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sith_rising posted:
Gillard's lightsaber scale completely went out the window when Obi-Wan carved up Anakin on Mustafar.
No it didn't. Skill doesn't guarantee a victory.
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"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
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sith_rising
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
12/4/07 6:17pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Then I guess we can officially dispense with every "could X beat Y?" thread, now that we agree that anyone is capable of beating anyone.
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"My mentor taught me everything about the Force, even the nature of the Dark Side"
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
12/5/07 3:52am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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sith_rising posted:
Then I guess we can officially dispense with every "could X beat Y?" thread, now that we agree that anyone is capable of beating anyone.
I agree with you on this one.
The problem is that Gillard has stated that the difference between a level 8 and a level 9 is huge - implying that a level 8 shouldn't stand a chance against level 9. We know that is BS. OBW holds his own against Vader through a pretty long duel - it's not luck, it's defensive skills. So either Vader wasn't a 9 (which makes Gillard wrong), or a level 8 can hold his own against a level 9, thus making a level 9 not that much better than a level 9 (which makes Gillard wrong)...
Which one do you prefer? 
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
12/5/07 3:27pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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That Obi-Wan knows what Vader is going to do and is able to predict him. So basically it goes down to what it often does, "Don't **** with Kenobi."
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"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
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Sitara
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
12/5/07 11:24pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Master_Starwalker posted:
I don't think you're lying I just think it's contradicted by the above and TPM since Obi-Wan who was presumably at best a 6 in TPM beat Maul and was able to force the Dark Lord to back peddle for part of their duel. Maul being even an 8 makes him look far worse as it has him losing to a duelist who shouldn't be able to even touch him. If however Maul is say, a 7 then he simply lost to an opponent who was able to hold his own against him but was defeatable. I think what makes the most sense is that Obi-Wan was a 5 or 6 and Maul was a 6 or 7. Maul does well until Obi-Wan draws on the Dark Side which boosts his ability and allows him to cut Maul's saber in half.
The PREQUELS was published post ROTS, therefore it outvalidates any claim made at the time of TPM. It cannonically states Maul was second only to Sidious in lightsaber combat. You cannot get any more official than Sansweet and Lucas.
Maul defeated Kenobi easily; it was only after the duel was over, when Maul fell prey to overconfidence and gloating and let down his guard that kenobi did something unexpected to pick up an unlikely kill.
Now look at Vader; not only was he evenly matched with Kenobi, he got thrashed in the duel itself, not after the duel was over. Also, Kenobi actually TOLD Vader what move he was going to do; yet Vader STILL could not block it and got chopped. It certainly shows howweak AVader is in lightsaber combat, at least compared to titans such as Maul, Sidious, Mace, Yoda and Kenobi.
You do realize though, if Maul had really wanted to kill Anakin he could have easily run him over with his speeder back on tatooine. (you know, in TPM when anakin threw himself to the ground in sheer terror lest he be crushed like a bug when Maul came out of the desert?)
Roadkill; thats what Vader is to Maul. 
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
12/5/07 11:30pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
- Date Edited:
12/5/07 11:34pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Starwalker
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Sitara posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
I don't think you're lying I just think it's contradicted by the above and TPM since Obi-Wan who was presumably at best a 6 in TPM beat Maul and was able to force the Dark Lord to back peddle for part of their duel. Maul being even an 8 makes him look far worse as it has him losing to a duelist who shouldn't be able to even touch him. If however Maul is say, a 7 then he simply lost to an opponent who was able to hold his own against him but was defeatable. I think what makes the most sense is that Obi-Wan was a 5 or 6 and Maul was a 6 or 7. Maul does well until Obi-Wan draws on the Dark Side which boosts his ability and allows him to cut Maul's saber in half.
The PREQUELS was published post ROTS, therefore it outvalidates any claim made at the time of TPM. It cannonically states Maul was second only to Sidious in lightsaber combat. You cannot get any more official than Sansweet and Lucas.
Those were made during RotS and Lucas > Sansweet as Sansweet's statements aren't canon. If Lucas has been quoted as saying that I may have to reconcile to that though I think it's contradicted by the films.
Sitara posted:
Maul defeated Kenobi easily; it was only after the duel was over, when Maul fell prey to overconfidence and gloating and let down his guard that kenobi did something unexpected to pick up an unlikely kill.
Now look at Vader; not only was he evenly matched with Kenobi, he got thrashed in the duel itself, not after the duel was over. Also, Kenobi actually TOLD Vader what move he was going to do; yet Vader STILL could not block it and got chopped. It certainly shows howweak AVader is in lightsaber combat, at least compared to titans such as Maul, Sidious, Mace, Yoda and Kenobi.
Again, Vader wasn't evenly matched with Kenobi. Ben was on the retreat for the entire duel and tired faster than Vader did. Vader was brought down by his arrogance, just like Maul was.
Sitara posted:
You do realize though, if Maul had really wanted to kill Anakin he could have easily run him over with his speeder back on tatooine. (you know, in TPM when anakin threw himself to the ground in sheer terror lest he be crushed like a bug when Maul came out of the desert?)
Doubt it. Qui-Gon and Jar Jar dropped as a MTT went over them and survived so I see no reason to assume Maul going over Anakin would have harmed him.
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"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
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Sitara
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
12/5/07 11:57pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Master_Starwalker posted:
Those were made during RotS and Lucas > Sansweet as Sansweet's statements aren't canon. If Lucas has been quoted as saying that I may have to reconcile to that though I think it's contradicted by the films.
They were published post ROTS. Sansweets comments are most definately cannon, second only to Lucas . Lucas has not denied Sansweets statments, so therefore they are surely cannon. Honestly why would Sansweet lie?
Master_Starwalker posted:
Again, Vader wasn't evenly matched with Kenobi. Ben was on the retreat for the entire duel and tired faster than Vader did. Vader was brought down by his arrogance, just like Maul was.
I don't understand where you get retreat from. ObiWan fought Vader headon; its only when the whole complex started disintegrating did he move outside to avoid debris, and then they resumed their duel outside. And then Kenobi proceeded to destroy him, due to superior maneuvering and skill. Note their opposed force push; if Vader had really been more powerful only kenobi would have gone flying; instead they both did. they were evenly matched in saber skills and force power.
Master_Starwalker posted:
Doubt it. Qui-Gon and Jar Jar dropped as a MTT went over them and survived so I see no reason to assume Maul going over Anakin would have harmed him.
Maul ramming his speeder into him would have done some damage, I think.  Or Maul launching himself at Anakin like he did at Qui-Gon would have certainly caused a few...scratches. But then, its Vader who kills defenceless children, not Maul. 
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