| Author |
Topic:
Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
|
Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
|
Date Posted:
12/6/07 12:06am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
- Date Edited:
12/6/07 12:08am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Starwalker
|
Sitara posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
Those were made during RotS and Lucas > Sansweet as Sansweet's statements aren't canon. If Lucas has been quoted as saying that I may have to reconcile to that though I think it's contradicted by the films.
They were published post ROTS. Sansweets comments are most definately cannon, second only to Lucas . Lucas has not denied Sansweets statments, so therefore they are surely cannon. Honestly why would Sansweet lie?
I'm not saying Sansweet is lying. He's definitely not. I'm just saying that Sansweet saying Maul is the second greatest duelist is no more a fact than Ian McDiarmid saying Palpatine fights at twice the speed of light. They're interesting and worth taking into consideration, but they aren't canon the way Lucas's statements are.
Sitara posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
Again, Vader wasn't evenly matched with Kenobi. Ben was on the retreat for the entire duel and tired faster than Vader did. Vader was brought down by his arrogance, just like Maul was.
I don't understand where you get retreat from. ObiWan fought Vader headon; its only when the whole complex started disintegrating did he move outside to avoid debris, and then they resumed their duel outside. And then Kenobi proceeded to destroy him, due to superior maneuvering and skill. Note their opposed force push; if Vader had really been more powerful only kenobi would have gone flying; instead they both did. they were evenly matched in saber skills and force power.
Kenobi is moving backwards for the entire duel with Vader constantly on the offensive. The push does look like it's Obi-Wan and Anakin both pushing, but according the script it's Vader blocking Obi-Wan's push. Vader also gets up a good deal faster than Kenobi does.
Sitara posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
Doubt it. Qui-Gon and Jar Jar dropped as a MTT went over them and survived so I see no reason to assume Maul going over Anakin would have harmed him.
Maul ramming his speeder into him would have done some damage, I think.  Or Maul launching himself at Anakin like he did at Qui-Gon would have certainly caused a few...scratches. But then, its Vader who kills defenceless children, not Maul. 
Maul ramming his speeder into him would have, the problem is Qui-Gon had told Anakin to drop. Maul tried to run Anakin over, it just didn't work. He could have launched himself at Anakin, but why would he? The Jedi Master is the more immediate threat. Also are you actually invoking the moral high-ground in the defense of a Sith Lord?
-----signature-----
"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Amrita_Glittersong
Registered:
Jan '07
|
Date Posted:
12/6/07 4:06am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
|
Sitara posted:
Maul ramming his speeder into him would have done some damage, I think. Or Maul launching himself at Anakin like he did at Qui-Gon would have certainly caused a few...scratches. But then, its Vader who kills defenceless children, not Maul.
Maul WAS trying to run into him, but either his aim, Anakin's ducking, or something else made him miss. It certainly wasn't, "Oh, I don't think I want to run over this little kid and his backpack'; it was more like, 'Aw, I was going for a strike.'
-----signature-----
Deceptions: http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=26426189 My SW videos: http://youtube.com/profile?user=Glittersong "I was trying to sound pompous." "Do you really think you need to try?" -Obi-Wan Kenobi and Siri Tachi
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
|
Date Posted:
12/6/07 11:25am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
|
Lucas hasn't countered what Sansweet said because more than likely he doesn't know what he said. Lucas doesn't sit down and read every book that's published by LFL and Lucasbooks.
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."
--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204
At best, Darth Maul was probably a level eight which is the highest a Jedi and Sith can reach, unless you're one of the four mentioned by Lucas and Gillard. At level eight, Maul is technically second to Palpatine. But that's as far as he gets.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Sitara
Registered:
Oct '01
|
Date Posted:
3/6 12:10pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
|
darth-sinister posted:
Lucas hasn't countered what Sansweet said because more than likely he doesn't know what he said. Lucas doesn't sit down and read every book that's published by LFL and Lucasbooks.
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."
--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204
And umm how does this in any way refute what Sansweet said? Sansweet said Maul is second only to Sidious in lightsaber skills. However, being yet very young (he was an apprentice) Maul does not have the force power of Yoda and Windu. Yet.
Therefore taking both into comparision sure Yoda and Windu would have a better chance, but in pure lightsaber skills Maul is superior to all save Sidious; given time he would have matured inforce power as well and become superior to the other 2.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
|
Date Posted:
3/6 12:30pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
|
What I still find interesting is the fact that in ROTS, Dooku sends Kenobi flying across the room, but when Anakin goes to use the Force against him on Mustafar... it was dead even. I'm sure someone will argue that Kenobi wasn't expecting it, got caught off guard or that Dooku just had his number... but those excuses will not appease me.
I would have liked to see more of Vader's (untrained) rage being loosed upon Kenobi. More Force stuff (like originally scripted) instead of a duel that becomes more mediocre with each subsequent vewing. Vader's demise would have been more believable if he attempted a move and missed... then tried again. That would have demonstrated his arrogance. As it is, he talks about power and then fails to jump twenty feet.
Awesome.
-----signature-----
Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
o[[]|[ooooooooooo]|[0]|[|]|[
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
|
Date Posted:
3/6 1:30pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
|
Sitara posted:
darth-sinister posted:
Lucas hasn't countered what Sansweet said because more than likely he doesn't know what he said. Lucas doesn't sit down and read every book that's published by LFL and Lucasbooks.
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."
--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204
And umm how does this in any way refute what Sansweet said? Sansweet said Maul is second only to Sidious in lightsaber skills. However, being yet very young (he was an apprentice) Maul does not have the force power of Yoda and Windu. Yet.
Therefore taking both into comparision sure Yoda and Windu would have a better chance, but in pure lightsaber skills Maul is superior to all save Sidious; given time he would have matured inforce power as well and become superior to the other 2.
And that doesn't make sense since Yoda and Mace are both on par with Palpatine in terms of a saber. They both disarm him in their duels.
SithStarSlayer posted:
What I still find interesting is the fact that in ROTS, Dooku sends Kenobi flying across the room, but when Anakin goes to use the Force against him on Mustafar... it was dead even. I'm sure someone will argue that Kenobi wasn't expecting it, got caught off guard or that Dooku just had his number... but those excuses will not appease me.
I would have liked to see more of Vader's (untrained) rage being loosed upon Kenobi. More Force stuff (like originally scripted) instead of a duel that becomes more mediocre with each subsequent vewing. Vader's demise would have been more believable if he attempted a move and missed... then tried again. That would have demonstrated his arrogance. As it is, he talks about power and then fails to jump twenty feet.
Awesome.
The explanation I've heard is that Kenobi was pushing Vader and Vader was just blocking it.
-----signature-----
"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Darth_Drachonus
Registered:
Oct '05
|
Date Posted:
3/6 1:39pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
|
Sitara posted:
darth-sinister posted:
Lucas hasn't countered what Sansweet said because more than likely he doesn't know what he said. Lucas doesn't sit down and read every book that's published by LFL and Lucasbooks.
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."
--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204
And umm how does this in any way refute what Sansweet said? Sansweet said Maul is second only to Sidious in lightsaber skills. However, being yet very young (he was an apprentice) Maul does not have the force power of Yoda and Windu. Yet.
Therefore taking both into comparision sure Yoda and Windu would have a better chance, but in pure lightsaber skills Maul is superior to all save Sidious; given time he would have matured inforce power as well and become superior to the other 2.
That's a direct contradiction. Maul isn't mentioned anywhere, he didn't say "You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emporer or Maul back when he was alive" It's like Master Starwalker said: Just because Ian says Palpatine can fight at twice the speed of light doesn't make it true unless we hear it from George's mouth
-----signature-----
Don't **** with a Jedi Master son-Luke Skywalker
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
|
Date Posted:
3/6 2:41pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
|
I don't really understand. On any given day, anyone can beat anyone. Obi-Wan beat Maul in their duel, that doesn't automatically make him 'better than Maul' - it just means he was better that day. Maul killed Qui-Gon, he was better that day, but that doesn't mean in a rematch in different circumstances Qui-Gon wouldn't be the victor.
Everyones skills are totally different. Obi-Wan is awesome at strategy; Anakin is powerful due to his connection with the force and his ability to see what is coming; Mace is a fire demon with his lightsaber based on oodles of experience; Yoda is quick, small, agile and has the experience of 900 years behind him. Sidious and Dooku too were phenomenal and Sidious' connection with the dark force was legendary.
Anybody can beat anyone. For example: Anakin could have perhaps beat Obi-Wan, but Obi-Wan out did Anakin's ego with strategy - and he even TOLD Anakin he would fail first. But Anakin could have jumped onto the mountain off to the side and continued fighting and perhaps prevailed. Anakin beat Dooku, and Dooku beat Obi-Wan that day - but then Obi-Wan beat Anakin - so clearly there is no way of simply ranking everyone.
The only "given" was that Anakin was supposed to destroy the Sith. That means he would be given the opportunity to do so based on the prophecy. Until then, yeah, the force was with him and he would be impossible to kill maybe, but not impossible to defeat. In that scenario, even Sidious didn't stand a chance.
-----signature-----
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
LemmingLord
Title: PT Manager & CLUE Host
Registered:
Apr '05
|
Date Posted:
3/6 4:09pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
|
I agree.
This contest of who has the biggest baddest force is trying at times. Always in motion is the future and the force. Woulda coulda shoulda - in different scenerios we have different victors.
-----signature-----
LemmingLord
Take a Leap of Faith and Follow Me
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Eternity85
Registered:
Jan '08
|
Date Posted:
3/7 8:23am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
- Date Edited:
3/7 8:25am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Eternity85
|
You know Brazil, the best national soccer team ever. They lost when they played Norway, it should not be possible, but it happened. The legenday boxing match between Ali and Foreman.
Foreman was younger, much stronger, and everyone thought he would win.
Ali was older, but had the skill and experience. Ali won although no one thought it was possible.
You can see these events all the time in real life, why should it be any different in a galaxy far far away..
-----signature-----
Live life as if your were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.
- Gandhi
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
|
Date Posted:
3/7 8:34am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
|
Foreman lost because he was about as dense as a brick. Ali lulled him to sleep; if you will, and let George bomb-away on his gloves and forearms. I've watched that fight a zillion times. Foreman simply punched himself-out, and just ran out of gas.
We have yet to see a Jedi attempt something that stupid, the rope-a-dope fighting style.
Sith ain't dumb like Foreman was, and no Jedi could survive a Sith's best shots for very long. I think that analogy with Ali and Foreman is flawed. Too many people credit Ali, when the truth of it was Foreman just didn't fight smart.
-----signature-----
Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
o[[]|[ooooooooooo]|[0]|[|]|[
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
DARTH-SMELLY-FEET
Registered:
Nov '07
|
Date Posted:
3/7 8:56am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
- Date Edited:
3/7 8:58am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DARTH-SMELLY-FEET
|
Off topic I know but I'd love to see Ali fight Maul hand to hand. As much as i like Maul I give him about 10 seconds before Ali knocks him out.
All hail Ali the greatest of all time
-----signature-----
Time is a great teacher, pity it kills all of its students.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
|
Date Posted:
3/7 8:57am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
|
Eternity85 posted:
You know Brazil, the best national soccer team ever. They lost when they played Norway, it should not be possible, but it happened.
Hey, us Norwegians should stick together on that one - after all, it's all we have to brag about in the world of football/soccer 
It only goes to show that on a given day anyone can lose. The Sith are not more powerful than the Jedi going by the movies as the most powerful Jedi can hang with and defeat the Sith.
Kenobi was powerful, skilled and wise and therefore came out on top of his duels.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
_Sublime_Skywalker_
Registered:
May '04
|
Date Posted:
3/7 10:31am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
|
My opinion on the topic of this thread is that Obi Wan was not necessarily the better physical fighter but the mental fighter.
In each fight, he won not because of his fighting skill, but because of his cunning and his ability to make the best out of a bad situation.
In TPM, Obi Wan is getting kicked about, falling from heights, all around beind abused by Maul while still blocking his blows. When he falls down the shaft, he grabs hold of the peg just to survive. At that moment, he really has no plan other than to survive. He has no lightsaber and even so he is definatly inferior in lightsaber skill against a sith lord like Maul. Once assesing the situation, Obi Wan takes advantage of Maul's high ground. Darth Maul is too busy silently gloating,thrashing his saber about, full on just enjoying the moment and his "triumph" to notice what Obi Wan is truly doing. If Obi Wan's maneuver had taken just an extra second or two, he would've been bantha fodder. It's the act of suprise he used, Maul had not a second to think how everything had turned upside down. That's called cunning.
As to Obi Wan vs Anakin, you're also forgetting that Anakin utterly destroyed Dooku, a man who took Obi Wan out TWICE. Anakin was obviously, the better lightsaber fighter but he didn't have the strategic mind of Kenobi to see what he was planning when he mentioned "The high ground". I mean, just look at the first minute or two of the fight, Anakin is HAMMERING Obi Wan, and even though he's blocking all the blows he knows he doesn't have the power Anakin does or the strength. However, once again Obi Wan takes advantage of his oponents weakness. Anakin hasn't learned to control his power by this time, and he's a full on emotional wreck. Even though Obi Wan warns him not to jump, Anakin's pride and anger makes him want to show up Kenobi, instead of doing the pratical thing and jumping infront of him to resume the duel he wants to spite Kenobi, to spit in his face and that is what leads to his destruction. Obi Wan knew what Anakin would do, he knew he'd have a split second to dis-limb him, and then he leaves him crawling on the dirt, on fire. I'm sorry, but even though cunning and strategy makes a better warrior, it does not necessarily make a better fighter.
-----signature-----
'You don't know the Power of the Darkside!'-Darth Vader
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
sith_rising
Registered:
Jan '04
|
Date Posted:
3/7 10:53am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
|
|
Despite beating both Maul and Vader, Obi-Wan fared much better against Anakin than he did against Maul. Maul dominated him, but Anakin was his equal in almost every way.
-----signature-----
"My mentor taught me everything about the Force, even the nature of the Dark Side"
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
