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Topic:
Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/7 11:44am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Obi-Wan and Anakin had only fought 1000000000 times before. One mustn't forget that.
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
3/7 1:50pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Damn that's a lot of zeroes.
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"That power is evilly-gained and is evil in itself. The blade's strength will continue to increase and yours will, also.
But, as Chaos-begotten power fills your being, you will have to fight, yet more strongly, to control the force within you."
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LemmingLord
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
3/7 3:50pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Nothing in the PT decisively shows that they fought before. We can assume they fought as master and apprentice and sparred as fellow jedi but I'm not sure there's any direct evidence that this is necssarily true... or am I forgetting a line if dialog?
Since the only real "training" scenes we see with lightsabers are with remotes, I prefer to go back to my original conception of how a Jedi learns to fight; this is based on the training scenes from the OT, specifically ESB - the master teach apprentices to feel the force and the force guides the fighter; those saber skillz hit them like Neo in the Matrix... "Woah... I know form IV."
One thing is for certain - the actors that portray Obi Wan and Anakin have fought quite a bit. 
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LemmingLord
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/7 5:28pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Yeah, but it would be a bit naive of the Jedi to send their padawans out on missions never having actually fought with their sabers in practice. Fighting against one another would only go so far, they would require more experienced opponents before they could face what they might find in the galaxy. Also, masters are specifically there to train their padawans in the force as you say - but that is not all a big mind game. It means being proficient in the duties that will arise. One has to be ready to meet certain challenges and cannot sit thinking of various ways and means of doing things when facing an enemy. The force may lead them to suddenly know that a force push is the right solution over battle, but force knowledge is not much help when it comes to fighting together with another or others in combat. Experience is helpful certainly and to gain it in battle - especially against another force user - would be kind of ridiculous. A good way to lose a lot of Jedi for we see that they all have various skills that develop at differing rates.
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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Chukles38
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
3/7 8:43pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
- Date Edited:
3/7 8:43pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Chukles38
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It's been said before but I'll add my voice to it. Maul and Anakin were better duelists techincally. If it was just a duel purely based on talent and skill, then they would win. But I ask you this, when will a duel be based purely on talent and skill? Always in a duel, the duelists have to think, plan and react. I don't care how amazing a duelist Anakin or Maul were, their character flaws made them absolutely the worst duelists in the world when facing an opponent like Kenobi. As has been stated, Obi-Wan was amazing at mental dueling. He was extremely defensive and could recognize and knew how to take advantage of the perfect opportunity. We see the same thing in the first Dooku/Anakin duel. Anakin was pummeling Dooku with two sabers. His ferocity was unmatched as he used every piece of skill he possessed. I would venture a guess to say that Anakin could have won if Dooku was not at least as good as Kenobi at mental dueling. Dooku blocked, gave ground, saw an opportunity and ended the duel in one move. So, we can see that their is a lot more to dueling than pure talent. Your character plays a huge part. Both Maul and Anakin were extremely skilled and extremely arrogant. Sure, their skill and ferocity got them through a lot of battles as the victors. However, when thrown against the right opponent, they get beat badly. My opinion is that Kenobi's victories were no fluke. If Maul and Anakin were to re-do their fights over and over again, then Kenobi would win 9 times out of 10. No matter how skilled they were, Maul and Anakin would always allow for their arrogance to make them slip up. Kenobi excelled at taking advantage of other's slip ups. That's why he had such a hard time with Dooku. Dooku hardly ever slipped up.
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I'm Edward, in Jacob's life minus the wolves, friends, and happy ending..... I think.
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_Sublime_Skywalker_
Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
3/7 10:32pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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xx_Anakin_xx posted:
Obi-Wan and Anakin had only fought 1000000000 times before. One mustn't forget that.
It's quite different fighting your master trying to best him in a sparring contest,and quite another trying to kill him. Anakin had never lashed out all his anger and rage at Obi Wan while fighting, it was simple master apprentice teaching.
However, that is why Obi Wan is so good with blocking all of Anakins attacks, it's because he HAS seen them hundreds of times. However, the motivation to kill is there and that is why Obi may be holding his ground on the outside, but is being pushed back on the inside. The only advantage he had over Anakin/ Darth Vader was the mentality of a Jedi, calm and relaxed, there to get a mission done. Whereas Anakin was ready to prove he was above his master, stronger and willing to kill. It's Anakin's anger and pride that get him in the end. He's always known he was more powerful then his master, now he had the means to use it and he was ready to shine.
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'You don't know the Power of the Darkside!'-Darth Vader
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/7 10:48pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
- Date Edited:
3/7 10:49pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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I agree. I personally add to it the emotional constraints of both parties by virtue of their supposedly being best friends, brothers, father-son, mentor-student, master-padawan, etc. Goerge has brought that fact up repeatedly and according to the OS plans to make it more evident in the animated series. However, we got it in the movies too in AOTC and ROTS. So even though they don't do a scene with the two looking at one another regretfully or some emo scene where they are unable to actually strike a killing blow (cuz that would have been a bit ridiculous) - based on human nature and reality and all of that, their knowing one another's skills, the added touch of wanting/having to kill one another had to have been tempered by their longstanding relationship and a seed deep down somewhere reminding them that they really didn't want to kill one another. For me that explained why Obi-Wan wacked at Anakins limbs rather than slicing him in half as he had D. Maul and also Obi-Wan getting out of the force choke because Anakin's connection to the force was greater and if he had really meant it with every last fibre of his being, with anger, Obi-Wan couldn't have gotten a release on that choke hold - all things kept realistic of course. That is my view anyway which someone may have an excellent rebuttal for and change my mind on, lol. But it makes sense to me at the moment.
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
3/8 12:23am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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I'm just not sure that Vader didn't want to kill Obi-Wan. He was once his brother, but Vader believed that Obi-Wan had corrupted Padme and turned her against him. So not only did his brother betray him, but he corrupted Padme which made everything Vader had done all for naught as she would never go with him. I find it reasonable to take from that that Vader wanted to savor killing Obi-Wan. All of that's just my interpretation of course.
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"The ways of the Living Force are beyond our understanding... But fear not. You are in the hands of something much greater and much better than you can imagine." - Qui-Gon Jinn
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
3/8 2:26am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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I agree MS: Vader had no hesitations at that point about killing OBW. I rather think that when it came to it, OBW hesitated to kill Anakin - he did have a golden opportunity when he had Anakin lying on the table without his saber, yet he hesitated just long enough...
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Eternity85
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/8 4:56am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
- Date Edited:
3/8 5:06am (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Eternity85
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Rossa83 posted:
Hey, us Norwegians should stick together on that one - after all, it's all we have to brag about in the world of football/soccer 
Yeah i know, that is true. Though it was the best example i could find
And about the Ali vs Foreman fight. I know Foreman was boxing like a idiot. But thats my point
right there. Kenobi was smart, Anakin was not.
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_Sublime_Skywalker_
Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
3/8 9:43am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Master_Starwalker posted:
I'm just not sure that Vader didn't want to kill Obi-Wan. He was once his brother, but Vader believed that Obi-Wan had corrupted Padme and turned her against him. So not only did his brother betray him, but he corrupted Padme which made everything Vader had done all for naught as she would never go with him. I find it reasonable to take from that that Vader wanted to savor killing Obi-Wan. All of that's just my interpretation of course.
I agree. I almost think of Obi Wan as Anakin's true test to become a sith lord, to destroy someone who did mean so much to him. He had believed that Obi Wan had turned Padme against him, that they were having an affair and that Padme willingly brought him there to get Anakin out of the picture. The view is distorted, but he still has it. Plus if Anakin could go threw killing the all the jedi, his friends, fellow knights and respected masters, then Obi Wan was going to get the same treatment.
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'You don't know the Power of the Darkside!'-Darth Vader
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
3/8 10:04am
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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Eternity85 posted:
Rossa83 posted:
Hey, us Norwegians should stick together on that one - after all, it's all we have to brag about in the world of football/soccer
Yeah i know, that is true. Though it was the best example i could find
And about the Ali vs Foreman fight. I know Foreman was boxing like a idiot. But thats my point
right there. Kenobi was smart, Anakin was not.
Well, you are forgiven
The Foreman fight is a perfectly good example. It shows how two good fighters are separated by mistakes, which we may go on to say are stupid. However, when fighting I can only presume that adrenaline guides your moves as much as your brain does, and thus it is easy to lose the sight of things. OBW was able to keep his cool - Anakin was not. So skill in a multitude of ways is certainly involved...
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Darth_Davi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
3/8 3:55pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
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I like to look at Anakin and Obi-Wan as like former NFL QBs Dan Marino and Joe Montana. Both are in the NFL Hall of Fame, but Dan Marino was far more gifted physically than Montana was, he could throw the ball much farther and faster than Montana. Anakin was physically capable of using the Force better than Obi-Wan, as a result of the midichlorian count. On paper, Dan Marino and Anakin are the superior competitors. Yet, Marino never won the Super Bowl, and Montana won four, including a thrashing of Marino's Dolphins. Why? Some could say Montana had a better supporting team...which, may be true. But, Montana, like Obi-Wan, despite being physically less talented, had a knack for keeping his cool. With Marino, and Anakin, if you picked him off, theoretically, you could rattle him, make him lose his cool, and trick him into making mistakes. Montana and Kenobi, meanwhile, were just more capable of taking things in stride, not being overly bothered by mistakes. Montana and Kenobi win because they were smarter, and were capable of keeping their wits about them. A smarter opponent should almost always be able to take down the more physically gifted one.
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What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon?
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide!
It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/8 5:41pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
- Date Edited:
3/8 5:43pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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Master_Starwalker posted:
I'm just not sure that Vader didn't want to kill Obi-Wan. He was once his brother, but Vader believed that Obi-Wan had corrupted Padme and turned her against him. So not only did his brother betray him, but he corrupted Padme which made everything Vader had done all for naught as she would never go with him. I find it reasonable to take from that that Vader wanted to savor killing Obi-Wan. All of that's just my interpretation of course.
If this is in response to what I said, I didn't say that Anakin didn't want to kill Obi-Wan, he did. Obi-Wan wanted to kill Anakin too, purportedly. But the proof is in the pudding isn't it? In the end Obi-Wan didn't kill Anakin when he was lying before him, 3 limbs gone missing. And I don't buy the Jedi Code stuff - this was a Sith Lord, the Jedi kill Sith Lords because leaving them without Limbs means nothing when they have been cut off with a lightsaber - Anakin wasn't going to bleed to death. And Obi-Wan walked away BEFORE Anakin caught fire.
Let us move on to Anakin. He has Obi-Wan in a force choke to the point where Obi-Wan is seriously weakening under his hold. There is no way that Anakin couldn't have finished him off - he didn't even have to hold his neck, but he was. You cannot get out of a choke hold if the person doing it Intends for you to die. We have to suspend our belief and imagine that Obi-Wan's connection to the force is suddenly FAR greater than Anakin's if he was able to kick Anakin off of him, if Anakin was immersed in dark force power, driven by anger and with the firm purpose of killing Obi-Wan.
Examples aside, there was 'still good in Anakin' and at that point, a heck of a lot more good than 20 years later. Anakin released Padme from a choke hold before she died and he claimed he felt life in her still, so easy enough for us to conclude that deep down he didn't really want to kill her - despite the fact that she'd betrayed him. That is all I am saying here. In his surface thoughts, Anakin wanted to kill Obi-Wan - but deep down, this was his best friend - his brother, he would feel the same way. Evil didn't just suddenly come upon Anakin - that is why George had him stand there with the tear falling after his killing spree. Anakin was messed up, so why people wouldn't think he would be conflicted over Obi-Wan, who he loved only second to Padme, confuses me completely.
Now if the question is 'would Anakin have killed Obi-Wan?' - probably. But not if Obi-Wan was laying before him without limbs. It would have had to have been in the heat of Battle - fight - advantage - strike. And he wouldn't have stood their cheering afterward either. Do you get what I mean?
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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Eternity85
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/8 7:52pm
Subject:
RE: Results vs Skill Level: you can't have it both way (Anakin, Kenobi and Maul)
- Date Edited:
3/8 8:27pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Eternity85
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I agree with xx_Ankin_xx. Good post!
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A kind & sincere smile is the greatest gift in life.
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