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Topic:
Why does Padme's character change so much between TPM, AOTC, and ROTS?
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
12/23/07 3:36pm
Subject:
RE: Why does Padme's character change so much between TPM, AOTC, and ROTS?
- Date Edited:
12/23/07 3:37pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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They had gaffi sticks ( and presumably blaster rifles as well ). They weren't completely helpless.
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"That power is evilly-gained and is evil in itself. The blade's strength will continue to increase and yours will, also.
But, as Chaos-begotten power fills your being, you will have to fight, yet more strongly, to control the force within you."
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
12/23/07 3:40pm
Subject:
RE: Why does Padme's character change so much between TPM, AOTC, and ROTS?
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True, though given the primitive nature of the Tuskens it's likely that the women weren't trained to fight and the children would be far less able to fight than a ticked off Skywalker.
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Arawn_Fenn
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Jul '04
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Date Posted:
12/23/07 3:47pm
Subject:
RE: Why does Padme's character change so much between TPM, AOTC, and ROTS?
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Anakin would simply have been following in the footsteps of Darth Revan before him... if in fact Revan had returned as canonically DS. 
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"That power is evilly-gained and is evil in itself. The blade's strength will continue to increase and yours will, also.
But, as Chaos-begotten power fills your being, you will have to fight, yet more strongly, to control the force within you."
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
12/23/07 3:49pm
Subject:
RE: Why does Padme's character change so much between TPM, AOTC, and ROTS?
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I preferred Revan forcing a psychotic and murderous droid to serve as the messenger of his message of peace. 
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"The ways of the Living Force are beyond our understanding... But fear not. You are in the hands of something much greater and much better than you can imagine." - Qui-Gon Jinn
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
12/23/07 4:36pm
Subject:
RE: Why does Padme's character change so much between TPM, AOTC, and ROTS?
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I want to be clear that I am not personally defending Anakin's slaughter of the Tuskens. I am a firm opponent of capital punishment, as I've said several times in my last few posts here, but somehow that profession of beliefs gets lost in the copy-and-paste of my statements. All the arguments I'm making about the heinousness of the Tuskens are from Anakin's point of view. He believes they are irredeemable murderers, and depicts them as such to Padme, who doesn't know any better. Thus her comforting him for his atrocities is perfectly comprehensible from a human pespective, and consistent with her characterization as a caring, compassionate person.
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"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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Padawan_of_Palpatine
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
12/23/07 6:42pm
Subject:
RE: Why does Padme's character change so much between TPM, AOTC, and ROTS?
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Vortigern99, I completely understand your stance. Most people I talk to accuse me of being an apologist for Lucas and the prequels. Now that may be the case, but I choose to look at it as I do not have that many problems with it because I like it. But hey…maybe that's just me:)
Anyway, back to Padme. I don't have a problem with how she was portrayed throughout Eps 1-3. I feel the biggest "change" for her was between 2 and 3. However, I don't really feel as if it were an unreasonable change. I don't see what is so wrong with a woman deciding to stand by, and fight for, her family (husband and unborn child/children). 5 years ago, I would always pick up extra hours at work because I wanted to make a difference and establish myself in my career. But these days, my priorities have changed. I tend to work the needed hours, and I try to spend more time with my wife. Some people could say that I have changed over the years, but I say no. I have merely changed the things I put the most stock into. That's how I see Padme. Like Vort said, her world (that she helped create) was crumbling around her in Ep3. The only things she had that she could "depend" on, in her eyes, were Anakin and the baby. Being a mother and wife was more important than being a Senator. For some of you, that may not have been the case. But for Padme, it meant a lot.
And a quick tidbit about the tuskens. I don't agree with Anakin. No way....no how. Absolutely not. Killing the entire camp was wrong. Heck, even killing half of the camp would have been wrong. No one (or thing) should ever play judge, juror and executioner. But like others have said, I can understand the position. I would not have done it myself. But I can see where someone else may have rationalized it. It is not completely baseless in my opinion. Just like it is not completely "out there" to think that Padme would have a bit of compassion for him. But I guess that most people think that she should have said......"Man, that's messed up with what happened to your mom. It's a shame those raiders kidnapped and tortured her, while just waiting for her to die. But really, you should be ashamed of yourself. How can you go off like that and kill innocent....well, how can you kill beings like that. You really must have some nerve. You jerk." Maybe that would have gone over better.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
12/23/07 10:25pm
Subject:
RE: Why does Padme's character change so much between TPM, AOTC, and ROTS?
- Date Edited:
12/23/07 10:26pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Starwalker
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Vortigern99 posted:
I want to be clear that I am not personally defending Anakin's slaughter of the Tuskens. I am a firm opponent of capital punishment, as I've said several times in my last few posts here, but somehow that profession of beliefs gets lost in the copy-and-paste of my statements. All the arguments I'm making about the heinousness of the Tuskens are from Anakin's point of view. He believes they are irredeemable murderers, and depicts them as such to Padme, who doesn't know any better. Thus her comforting him for his atrocities is perfectly comprehensible from a human pespective, and consistent with her characterization as a caring, compassionate person.
Oh I know, but I simply disagree that it's understandable that Padme would unquestioningly believe that they're just animals. Admittedly, her love for Anakin could have clouded her vision. But I can certainly sympathize with how your views are sometimes lost in the shuffle of quotes.
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
12/24/07 8:27am
Subject:
RE: Why does Padme's character change so much between TPM, AOTC, and ROTS?
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Padawan_of_Palpatine posted:
And a quick tidbit about the tuskens. I don't agree with Anakin. No way....no how. Absolutely not. Killing the entire camp was wrong. Heck, even killing half of the camp would have been wrong. No one (or thing) should ever play judge, juror and executioner. But like others have said, I can understand the position. I would not have done it myself. But I can see where someone else may have rationalized it. It is not completely baseless in my opinion. Just like it is not completely "out there" to think that Padme would have a bit of compassion for him. But I guess that most people think that she should have said......"Man, that's messed up with what happened to your mom. It's a shame those raiders kidnapped and tortured her, while just waiting for her to die. But really, you should be ashamed of yourself. How can you go off like that and kill innocent....well, how can you kill beings like that. You really must have some nerve. You jerk." Maybe that would have gone over better.
QFT.
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"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
12/24/07 11:19am
Subject:
RE: Why does Padme's character change so much between TPM, AOTC, and ROTS?
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DARTH-SMELLY-FEET posted:
So you are saying it was ok for him to kill women and children because they were guilty by association?
I didn't say it was okay. I'm saying that was his justification. Anakin wanted to not only make his mother's tormenters pay, but to prevent the future crimes of the Tusken Raiders. I'll explain more in a bit.
DARTH-SMELLY-FEET posted:
So lets say my brother killed someone, should I suffer for his crimes along with my parents?
To make them hurt as much as you do, yes. Say my family was affected. It's not enough to make your brother pay for his life, I want to take it out on you. So I kill you to even the score and then I kill him to have my revenge. An eye for an eye, blood for blood. If you are familiar with the concept of vendettas, then this is plainly clear.
SHADOW-JEDI posted:
Darth Sinister:
I am not going to get into all the off-screen info re the Tuskens, their culture, etc...I don't think we need to. Even if we postulate that the Tuskens are a 'savaage race' which incoroporates torture into its culture, even if they are almost like orcs... for Anakin to slaughter them to the last, men women and children...is wrong, period. It is wrong in the context of the movie, clearly, and Anakin KNOWS it is wrong, VERY wrong, for HIM to do it, despite all the Jedi training he has received. He reacts with shame and horror (and it is Padme who offers the rationalizations and excuses - very telling!).
Similarly, look at Anakin's reactions in ROTS... he is not joyful or energized or invigorated by his darker deeds. When Anakin is alone on Mustafar, and has time to think... he is troubled, near tears (or crying, i can't recall).
Granted, that doesn't keep him from giving in to the Dark Side, from slipping further, from attacking Padme and Obi Wan. BUT... with all due respect, I don't think there is any rationalizing it. Slaughtering the Tuskens is evil. Killing the younglings? Betraying the Jedi? WRONG. And on some level, Anakin clearly knows it.
Shadow
Oh yes, he does know it. But as one becomes a Sith, one starts to embrace the bloodlust. That's what Palpatine wants from Anakin. Look at how Palpatine acts during his fight with the Jedi Posse and then with Yoda. He's getting off on the carnage. He has no conscience that tells him this is wrong. All he knows is that he's having fun. He's reveling in his power. Anakin, when alone, does feel remorse. But more and more, he's not feeling that way. Listen to him as he tells Padme about his future plans and his rationalization. He's starting to become like he is in the OT. Like Palpatine.
Yes, it is wrong to take a life. But when human emotion gets involved, all that's left is the desire for revenge. To inflict pain on others. To make them suffer as you've suffered. Revenge isn't about being rational. It isn't about seeking forgiveness and understanding. It's about punishment.
Master_Starwalker posted:
And the Tuskens being savages doesn't give Anakin the okay to massacre women and children. No one is saying that the Tuskens were right to torture Shmi so you can remove that strawman right now. The point is Anakin slaughtering helpless people is wrong, no matter what their crimes. That's like saying that if someone shoots my mother I have the okay to kill everyone else who has ever known him and to slaughter his family, which is simply not the case.
I never said it was okay. This is about making them suffer, as I've said. And from a certain point of view, it is right. "The sins of the father shall be visited upon their sons". This phrase means that the crimes of the father are placed upon their offspring. These Tusken Raiders will turn around and do what their parents taught them. It's a vicious cycle. Look to ANH. The Tuskens are no different there. Had Obi-wan not been there, odds are that Luke would've been taken to the Tusken Camp and be inflicted with the same torture as his grandmother. In the eu story, "Tatooine Ghost", Kister was undergoing the torture process when Leia rescued him. Anakin wanted to prevent that kind of thing from happening again, when he went ballistic. Everyone had to pay for the suffering he has endured.
It doesn't matter if they knew how to fight. One day, they would do what they were raised to do. Just as the Younglings would as well.
Master_Starwalker posted:
Oh I know, but I simply disagree that it's understandable that Padme would unquestioningly believe that they're just animals. Admittedly, her love for Anakin could have clouded her vision. But I can certainly sympathize with how your views are sometimes lost in the shuffle of quotes.
Any person who tortures and kills for no real good reason, yet feels no remorse for doing so, is an animal. When people show no remorse, they are considered inhuman. Yes, she loved Anakin. But she could understand why he did what he did. Most people would do that. We as humans have a need to protect ourselves and our loved ones, that can go beyond all reasoning. Vengeance is what it is. It's everywhere. In real life and in fiction. You don't have to be a sociopath or a pyschopath to want revenge on your enemies. The thing is what do you want to do to hurt them as much as they hurt you. What do you do to prevent this from happening to everyone else.
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Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
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DARTH-SMELLY-FEET
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
12/24/07 1:15pm
Subject:
RE: Why does Padme's character change so much between TPM, AOTC, and ROTS?
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The old eye for an eye speech Darth Sinister? The reason why that doesnt work is because then i go and take it out on you and someone else close to you. Anakins actions were wrong. While i understand why he did what he did there's not one person here who can say what he did was right.
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Padawan_of_Palpatine
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Mar '03
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Date Posted:
12/24/07 1:35pm
Subject:
RE: Why does Padme's character change so much between TPM, AOTC, and ROTS?
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Excellent points Sinister and SMELLY. I think this is the ultimate thing that makes this sort of topic so polarizing. The outlooks on the subject seem to be 2 main views. And before anyone says it, I am not saying everyone thinks this way. It is merely MY observation and feelings based on several conversations. Some people simply look at things and judge whether A) they would have done it and B) was is right or wrong. Personally, I tend to do the same thing. But then, some of us begin to look at it in another context.....Can it be explained (in some form of logic) why the person chose to perform their terrible act?
In Anakin's case, both Tuskens and Younglings, I can see a logic progression in his reasoning. If Group A is being threatened by Group B, it would not be illogical for Group A to eliminate the strong points of Group B (ex: their men/warriors). It would also make sense for Group A to take it a step further and eliminate future strengths/competition from Group B (ex: their children/future warriors and the women that would birth them). Now, does that make it right? H E double toothpicks NO! It is terrible. It is horrible. It is something I would never choose to do. However, I can step back and see where a person or group would make that decision. Especially considering the circumstances that influenced the group or person to make that decision. Once again....not saying it's right, just saying that it makes sense in an evil way. That's what this whole thing comes down to.....RIGHT and WRONG vs ANGER and STRATEGY.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
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Jun '01
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Date Posted:
12/25/07 9:45am
Subject:
RE: Why does Padme's character change so much between TPM, AOTC, and ROTS?
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DARTH-SMELLY-FEET posted:
The old eye for an eye speech Darth Sinister? The reason why that doesnt work is because then i go and take it out on you and someone else close to you.
No, because then I would eliminate you before you got the chance. I would just need to see you suffer for a few minutes, before finishing the job. And even then, haven't you ever seen stories where this exact thing happens?
DARTH-SMELLY-FEET posted:
Anakins actions were wrong. While i understand why he did what he did there's not one person here who can say what he did was right.
It doesn't have to be right to be justified. The Tuskens started this and he finished it. You can ask people all you want right now, but that's because it hasn't happened. Come back to them when their loved one is dead as a result of someone else's actions, intentional or otherwise. We all have the capacity for revenge. Whether we follow through on it or not, is the true test.
The Tusken slaughter was both an act of revenge and preventative measure. The Jedi Temple raid was a preventative measure. The Separatist massacare was an act of revenge.
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Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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Padawan_of_Palpatine
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
12/25/07 11:47am
Subject:
RE: Why does Padme's character change so much between TPM, AOTC, and ROTS?
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darth-sinister posted:
We all have the capacity for revenge. Whether we follow through on it or not, is the true test.
So simple....yet so true. Well said.
darth-sinister posted:
The Tusken slaughter was both an act of revenge and preventative measure. The Jedi Temple raid was a preventative measure. The Separatist massacare was an act of revenge.
This is something that I speak about with friends at volume. All of them constantly yell, "How can he kill kids? He sucks!" My response is always the same. "They are not kids. They are junior warriors with the potential to be extremely powerful." The Separatists were a different story. That was ultimate hate at its max. No way around that.
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RamRed
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
12/25/07 2:02pm
Subject:
RE: Why does Padme's character change so much between TPM, AOTC, and ROTS?
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Master_Starwalker posted:
True, but one would think Padme would know better given all of the alien species she has been exposed to.
Since when has Padme ever been perfect? And how do you expect her to feel differently, considering her knowledge that Shmi had been kidnapped and then tortured to death for a month by the Tusken Raiders?
I'm not condoning Anakin's actions. But I wouldn't be surprise that she was willing to forgive him because she was horrified by what had happened to Shmi.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
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Date Posted:
12/26/07 3:05am
Subject:
RE: Why does Padme's character change so much between TPM, AOTC, and ROTS?
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darth-sinister posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
And the Tuskens being savages doesn't give Anakin the okay to massacre women and children. No one is saying that the Tuskens were right to torture Shmi so you can remove that strawman right now. The point is Anakin slaughtering helpless people is wrong, no matter what their crimes. That's like saying that if someone shoots my mother I have the okay to kill everyone else who has ever known him and to slaughter his family, which is simply not the case.
I never said it was okay. This is about making them suffer, as I've said. And from a certain point of view, it is right. "The sins of the father shall be visited upon their sons". This phrase means that the crimes of the father are placed upon their offspring. These Tusken Raiders will turn around and do what their parents taught them. It's a vicious cycle. Look to ANH. The Tuskens are no different there. Had Obi-wan not been there, odds are that Luke would've been taken to the Tusken Camp and be inflicted with the same torture as his grandmother. In the eu story, "Tatooine Ghost", Kister was undergoing the torture process when Leia rescued him. Anakin wanted to prevent that kind of thing from happening again, when he went ballistic. Everyone had to pay for the suffering he has endured.
It doesn't matter if they knew how to fight. One day, they would do what they were raised to do. Just as the Younglings would as well.
The vicious cycle continues until someone is brave enough to end it and refuse to become a sadistic monster. Anakin unfortunately was too weak to do so. He was wrong to slaughter children whether they be Jedi or Tusken. To his credit even Anakin realized that as a Jedi he should have been better than that.
darth-sinister posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
Oh I know, but I simply disagree that it's understandable that Padme would unquestioningly believe that they're just animals. Admittedly, her love for Anakin could have clouded her vision. But I can certainly sympathize with how your views are sometimes lost in the shuffle of quotes.
Any person who tortures and kills for no real good reason, yet feels no remorse for doing so, is an animal. When people show no remorse, they are considered inhuman. Yes, she loved Anakin. But she could understand why he did what he did. Most people would do that. We as humans have a need to protect ourselves and our loved ones, that can go beyond all reasoning. Vengeance is what it is. It's everywhere. In real life and in fiction. You don't have to be a sociopath or a pyschopath to want revenge on your enemies. The thing is what do you want to do to hurt them as much as they hurt you. What do you do to prevent this from happening to everyone else.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind. Revenge is a natural desire, but that doesn't mean it's right.
RamRed posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
True, but one would think Padme would know better given all of the alien species she has been exposed to.
Since when has Padme ever been perfect? And how do you expect her to feel differently, considering her knowledge that Shmi had been kidnapped and then tortured to death for a month by the Tusken Raiders?
I'm not condoning Anakin's actions. But I wouldn't be surprise that she was willing to forgive him because she was horrified by what had happened to Shmi.
She's not perfect by a long shot, but she of all people should realize that a species seeming to be unintelligent doesn't mean they are.
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