tiffanysblue posted: There's a reason that the Sith prevailed initially. Even Yoda acknowledged the blindess of the order esp regarding Palpatine. The Jedi weren't blameless. As Obi wan once said, Only Siths deal in absolutes.
zombie posted:Vortigern99 posted:Given that her character changes and develops across a series of three films, the criticism that she is relegated to a one-note role is erroneous, unless it presumes ignorance of the preceding two installments. All of us here have seen TPM and AOTC, so we know she has not been portrayed in the shallow, one-note role of "pregnant spouse". Of course, but we're just talking about ROTS. In ROTS, she is a one-note character that plays into female stereotypes. Vortigern99 posted:Further, the opinion that such a role as depicted on ROTS is sexist is misguided, IMO, since that singular role consists of an admirable choice to raise children, which has been the function (though not the sole nor entire function) of women since the speciation of h. sapiens. It is currently en vogue to decry such depictions as derogatory, delimiting or degrading to women, and to question or even deride a real-world woman who opts for a housewife/maternal lifestyle. This outcry against women being viewed as "objects of impregnation" is not without a certain degree of merit, but at the same time it ignores the essential heroism of maternity. The sacrifice involved in choosing to bear and raise a child should not be forgotten or overlooked, as I feel is happening here. Again, I'm not disagreeing with you, there nothing wrong with a woman having "domestic female" characteristics; having a character that is a housewife, or that is preganant or focused on raising kids is not sexist. The problem in ROTS is that thats all Padme does. She defined almost exclusively by these qualities, and thats what comes across as sexist. If the rebel subplot had been included it would be better, because then there would be more to her, she wouldn't be this stereotypical "domestic female" character that exists only as a device for the male lead. But, as it occurs in the film, thats basically all she is, and thats where people take issue.
Vortigern99 posted:Given that her character changes and develops across a series of three films, the criticism that she is relegated to a one-note role is erroneous, unless it presumes ignorance of the preceding two installments. All of us here have seen TPM and AOTC, so we know she has not been portrayed in the shallow, one-note role of "pregnant spouse".
Vortigern99 posted:Further, the opinion that such a role as depicted on ROTS is sexist is misguided, IMO, since that singular role consists of an admirable choice to raise children, which has been the function (though not the sole nor entire function) of women since the speciation of h. sapiens. It is currently en vogue to decry such depictions as derogatory, delimiting or degrading to women, and to question or even deride a real-world woman who opts for a housewife/maternal lifestyle. This outcry against women being viewed as "objects of impregnation" is not without a certain degree of merit, but at the same time it ignores the essential heroism of maternity. The sacrifice involved in choosing to bear and raise a child should not be forgotten or overlooked, as I feel is happening here.
NATIONALGREATNESS posted:Ok........ I've been reading a lot of Fan Fiction stories recently, mostly Anakin and Padme centred ones. And it has to be said that it seems that in every story that involves Anakin and Padme, not just this one, every one, Padme hardly ever seems to use her head that well. As in, she always falls for Anakin, even if he is a horrible mass murderer, even if he is Vader. Why is that kind of story so attractive, when it just shows Padme giving into brutal male chauvinism and sexism and losing all of her freedom? FAN FICTION? Who cares? Take it for what it is! So......... Where is all this chauvinism? I don't see a shred of it. Anakin is more like an employee to Padme than her husband. He bends over backwards to please her 100% of the time. He goes to hell for her. They aren't equals, Padme holds all the cards and scolds Anakin and treats him as a five year old. He is her husband, not a subject. She seems to have little respect for him as a erson, seeing him more as an icon, then a man. But it applies to the movies as well............why is she so attracted to someone five years younger than her? It's hardly normal for a woman to have a boyfriend, let alone a husband, when she's five years his senior in age, is it? Especially at that age. Becuz he's smoking hot? Who cares if he's five years younger? You're very sexist really, a man can be 50 and the girl years younger and it's okay, but if a man if a handful of years younger the women is mentally ill? You must be awfully young. Better yet, sexist. It's you who find "older women" repulsive hags. Why shouldn't a woman have the same pleasures of a younger laughing partner? Women are always supposed to be so repsonsible, serious and "do the right thing" and be "perfect"? THAT is sexist. Besides, Padme is 24, a KID. That is a girl. A girl whose peers are all decades older than she is. She has in Anakin, someone actually not seperated from her by decades. He's handsome, he's a hero of the galaxy, the galaxy's best pilot, reknowned for his brilliance in battle, his daring do? And he's charming funny and cocky. Who wouldn't like a handsome strapping knight? Is Padme supposed to take a vow of celibacy or something? She's a young woman!!!!!!! But that's the thing - to me, the love story throughout the whole of the PT, even in the films where Anakin was "nice", although I'd hardly call him that, and he was still unashamedly sexist in ROTS(one of the film's few mistakes, IMO) - never made sense. Padme in AOTC was an intelligent politician. And she fell for a reckless, dangerous teenage Jedi who was always five years younger than her and married him, even though she knew, as she said in their conversation in AOTC by the fireplace that she could never fall in love with him or marry him. And yet she gave into it, even though it added up to being three things that were totally against her principles: That's love for you. Hits you like a freight train. No way to stop it. You cannot be rational. 1. It's illegal for a Jedi to have a relationship, which she and he knew, so she should have pushed him away, as a mature politician would have done. Instead, she fell for him like a 15 year old girl who was helplessly in love with a 19 year old guy, even though she was actually a 24 year old woman, and didn't care about breaking the law. Which is totally irresponsible of her. She didn't break the law. AT ALL. Anakin broke the rules of his workplace. Being a Jedi is a job, not a jail sentence. He isn't bound to it and wanted to leave. SHE wanted him stay in his shining knight mode. You really seem hung up on this five year difference. Do you give your buddies a hard time like that when they are ogling 14 year olds at the beach? Cause, you know they're five years younger, so it's ILLEGAL. Unlike Anakin who's actually 20 in the book, and a consenting ADULT. 2. She was a Senator, and yet she had children with a Jedi, even though that's not only illegal, but also destroys her career and turns her into a housewife to a man five years younger than her!!!?!?!? Why would she want that? I know it's what led to Luke and Leia, but to be honest, in my opinion, the way AOTC and ROTS totally destroyed the character of Padme that had been built up in TPM - turning her from a strong, clever, independent, tough, moral, and responsible teenager into first an arrogant and sort of responsible senator, and then into a helpless housewife who had no freedom and no rights.........what on earth was up with that? How did she not have any freedom? She placed these parameters on herself. Her lack of reality is showcased in her notions of having an entire family and hide them from her parents and peers. What the hell is wrong with HER? Anakin was ready to walk away fromt he Jedi. he really loved her more than anything else. "I have given my life to the Jedi, but I would only die FOR you." I honestly am begnning to think that Luke and Leia's mother should have been another girl who Anakin fell in love with and probably married, who was younger than him rather than older - that would have made a lot more sense, and also, she wouldn't be a politician. If anything, it's Obi-Wan that Padme should have fallen in love with. So the sick truth comes out. An ""obidala" person. Obi-wan loved Siri, but he gave his life to the Order. 3. She was shown in the earlier part of TPM and AOTC to be placing her personal life as less important than her work in the Senate, because she cared more about helping others than having a good life for herself. An admirable goal. And then she abandons it when a 19 year old guy who just happens to be a Jedi and who is also arrogant, reckless, irresponsible, disobedient, sexist, and occasionally stupid comes along, and she loses her career, her freedom, her principles, and in the end, her life. She lost all sense of helping others by ROTS. Well, not all sense, but a lot of it. Especially when she at first trusts Anakin over Obi-Wan even though Obi-Wan would never lie to her, and doesn't realise and accept that Anakin really has become the mosnter known as Vader until she actually sees how he has changed. That seems pretty stupid of her to me - she goes after him like an easily frightened person, not strong or free at all, even though she should be easily mature and responsible enough to understand what Obi-Wan meant, and to believe him, as he was indeed right. But she didn't, because somehow, getting together with Anakin destroyed the more sane and rational part of her brain, not to mention a lot of her intellect and power and free thinking. So, what? She did her duty, and then some. She wasn't a nun, her job wasn't an holy order, it'was an elected position. In conclusion, I don't think the love story in AOTC really worked at all. Certainly, after he admitted to killing the tuskens, sure it's fine that she comforted him, but that should have been the end of it. Why did she suddenly fall in love with someone as stupid, dangerous, violent, and uncontrolled as him just a little while later on Geonosis? I think it' worked. People fall in love everyday that aren't right for each other. Watch Moonstruck: "We aren't here to save each other. We're to struggle and break each other's hearts and ruin each other, and die." The worst of it is that she was no longer superior or equal to him after they got married. From the point of view of their relationship, ROTS felt like an ancient medieval tale where women were ruled by their husbands. Gee, but it's okay for her to rule over him, eh? Gee, and here I thought married couples were partners and equals. Silly me. Where does it say anywhere that she was supposed to be superior? They aren't employers to each other, they are a married couple. Now, I love ROTS overall, but not that aspect of it. It seems that somehow, Lucas became really sexist after TPM. Women become clingy and emotional when pregnant. Even Naomi Wolfe, the ultimate feminist says she bawled if her husband would be gone two hours longer than she expected. It's hormones, it's evolution. That's it. (Even MARA got all clingy and didn't want Luke to leave her.) It might seem strange for a guy to go on about sexism, but I've heard of it happening to loads of girls and I think it's dreadful when girls stick with their boyfriends even if their boyfriends are nasty, horrible people who treat them like crap, or when women marry men for love but in the process lose their freedom. I will never do that to the girl that I meet, or to any girl. I will always treat her as an equal. Anakin was never abusive to her. You base their entire relationship on one weak moment, the worst day of his life, where he did all that to SAVE her, not hurt her. She didn't know it, she blew off his concerns like he'd missed a football game. He lost freakin everything. He knew he would. Example: You have a dream where your wife and two kids are driving down the street and a tornado kills them. You know it's going to happen, but she laughs it off and goes to the store that day, ignoring your anxiety, saying you're silly. You wouldn't freak and act hysterical and demand that she stay home? That's what happened to Anakin. He only ever yelled at her once in his life. Jeeez.......... I hope this inspires interesting discussion.........
DantSolo posted:Unfortunately, I've seen many women who are strong in their everyday life be completely the opposite in their romantic relationships. That said, I do think it was a mistake to make Padme be so pathetic about Anakin. All throughout AOTC I never understood why Padme fell in love with him. Especially after he confessed to killing the Tusken Raiders. I really felt that relationship was very poorly handled. I suspect it is because of what Lucas needed to have happen in ROTS, as well as his weakness at writing and directing romance. I thought Padme was awesome in TPM, much less so in AOTC, and just pathetic in ROTS. And to have her die without any real cause was just lame. It's like she died of a broken heart, even though she had 2 kids to raise. That is the epitome of weakness.
