xx_Anakin_xx posted: Yoda admitted that Vader was acting contrary to his beliefs ('Unexpected this is'), and yet he holds on to his beliefs to his dying breath - at least verbally. Obi-Wan is totally stuck in the mud lost in his own personal misery and past failure combined with having his head stuffed with Jedi beliefs he is unwilling to let go of. He tells Luke he is bascially going to allow the Emperor to win if he doesn't kill his father. Obi-Wan does not use those words, but when Luke says "I can't KILL my father", Obi-Wan declares that the Emperor has already won - conclusion? You must kill your father.
xx_Anakin_xx posted: It was Vader who forced Luke to throw up his hands and break into a fight - not Obi-Wan; and it was Luke himself who had the strength to stop before he killed his dad - nothing to do with Obi-Wan except tangentially in teaching Luke the Jedi Ways.
xx_Anakin_xx posted:Yoda and Obi-Wan came up with a poor plan based on personal biases and prejudice. Jedi had believed for ages that Sith, for the most part, were completely unredeemable. That is, there was no point in even trying to do so, no matter what. Yoda admitted that Vader was acting contrary to his beliefs ('Unexpected this is'), and yet he holds on to his beliefs to his dying breath - at least verbally. Obi-Wan is totally stuck in the mud lost in his own personal misery and past failure combined with having his head stuffed with Jedi beliefs he is unwilling to let go of. He tells Luke he is bascially going to allow the Emperor to win if he doesn't kill his father. Obi-Wan does not use those words, but when Luke says "I can't KILL my father", Obi-Wan declares that the Emperor has already won - conclusion? You must kill your father.
xx_Anakin_xx posted:That said, Obi-Wan wasn't perfect, but he was an excellent Jedi in many ways and I agree one of the best of the breed. However, he did allow his own failings to overcome his better judgment in the end, even as a wise force ghost. Hopefully, after Anakin killed the Emperor and brought balance to the force, Obi-Wan learned a huge lesson that encompassed a gift that Luke and Anakin already had - self-forgiveness, overt selflessness and the importance of the living force (inlcuding the value of attachment). I think those lessons were shoved down Obi-Wan's throat, so I'm pretty sure he learned them.
MasterLuke8 posted: Whats the smartest path at that point? Hoping theres a small chance Vader can be redeemed, or ensuring the return of the republic and Jedi by taking vader out. If this was the case, no sith would ever be killed because they might turn light at the last minute, and that means the Jedi would be hesitant morons whod go extinct out of stupidity.
MasterLuke8 posted:And no, Yoda didnt sense good in Vader, he just didnt expect Vader to spill the beans when Luke hadnt finished his training. Thats why it was unexpected: the main plan to keep Luke away from Vader until ready failed in ESB. Its a monkeywrench in a perfect training plan. And lets say he didnt expect vader to remember his son (which is baffling, sith arent braindead theyre just evil. Recall Palps sensing Anakins son in ESB), a sith noticing his son could join him in wrecking the galaxy doesnt make him light side. He simply needed someone youthful and young to kill Palpatine for him, as Vader would be fried instantly. Recall Vaders similar offer to Padme in EP3, and he was just getting started in the dark side.
MasterLuke8 posted:I still contest it was Yoda and Obi wan that taught him well. Normally, a Jedi fighting with a lightsaber doesnt = anger fear and agression. Its doing what you must. How I see it, Luke knew there was going to be a very thin line to walk if he continued to do things as instructed. He is supposed to do what he must, but not out of rage and anger. In his special situation, since he figures this is a big risk, he realizes for himself that the most light side thing to do is to toss his saber. The Jedi are still responsible for Lukes smart decisions imo. "Beware the dark side: anger, fear agression." "How will I know the good side form the bad?" "You will know, when you are calm, at peace." Im going to have to respectfully disagree. This is how I see the movies.
Master Skywalker posted:That's once conclusion. Another is that Ben simply wanted Luke to be willing to kill Vader if no other option presented itself. It also doesn't necessarily mean Yoda agreed with Ben. We see some disagreements between them throughout the original trilogy most explicitly that Obi-Wan believed Luke was their last hope while Yoda believed Leia could succeed if Luke failed.
Master Skywalker posted:Anakin was hardly forgiving or selfless though until his final decision. Anakin's selfish refusal to accept the Force's will caused him to turn to the Dark Side and help oppress the galaxy. Obi-Wan was selfless his entire life, while Anakin only learned right before he died.
xx_Anakin_xx posted:That is swell unless you happen to be talking about a Sith who was a former Jedi and purported to be the chosen one - and you have Luke babbling over and over that he still senses the good in him. I call that narrow minded Jedi stuffiness. And we are not talking about 'every' Sith, just one. It wasn't a matter of definitely turning to the light, I am speaking of possibilities - something the Jedi are supposed to tune into - fluid futures and all that talk - where'd it go? However, I don't think Ben meant "if no other option presented itself" or he would have been more accomodating when speaking to Luke. Ben's response to "I can't kill my father" = "then the Emperor has already won" rather precludes the idea that Ben was up for Luke trying to redeem his father first.
xx_Anakin_xx posted:Master Skywalker posted:That's once conclusion. Another is that Ben simply wanted Luke to be willing to kill Vader if no other option presented itself. It also doesn't necessarily mean Yoda agreed with Ben. We see some disagreements between them throughout the original trilogy most explicitly that Obi-Wan believed Luke was their last hope while Yoda believed Leia could succeed if Luke failed. Totally agree with you about Yoda. However, I don't think Ben meant "if no other option presented itself" or he would have been more accomodating when speaking to Luke. Ben's response to "I can't kill my father" = "then the Emperor has already won" rather precludes the idea that Ben was up for Luke trying to redeem his father first. And Ben even said that he "once thought like that, but now believed Vader was a twisted evil being more machine than man". So I don't think Ben was being clever and hiding his true intent.
xx_Anakin_xx posted:Master Skywalker posted:Anakin was hardly forgiving or selfless though until his final decision. Anakin's selfish refusal to accept the Force's will caused him to turn to the Dark Side and help oppress the galaxy. Obi-Wan was selfless his entire life, while Anakin only learned right before he died. Totally agree with you here. I think you misunderstood me. I was merely talking in terms of Ben. Anakin was Vader, as far from Jedi as he could get and immersed in Sithhood. There is no comparison between the two. I was merely talking about Obi-Wan's own point of view in as far as how he looked at Jedi laws and such and also the broadening of his viewpoint to include exceptions to the Jedi viewpoints. But as I indicated, even with these flaws (well to me they were flaws - respecting that you may not think so), Obi-Wan was the best of the Jedi to me, I thought in other ways he was exceptional, even superior to Yoda. The selfless/living force bit was referring to a young Anakin and Luke - the self forgiving and broadening of viewpoint to Obi-Wan.
xx_Anakin_xx posted:[quote=MasterLuke8] The selfless/living force bit was referring to a young Anakin and Luke - the self forgiving and broadening of viewpoint to Obi-Wan.
