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Topic:
The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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AnakinSucks
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
3/11 11:45am
Subject:
The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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I have mentioned this before and think that it is worthy of discussion.
This should more or less be an elaborate "agree or not?" type thread.
Here is my beef:
Dooku is so powerful in the movies (and in the EU btw) that I think it serves to put the abilities of key figures in a jumbled mess.
Styles make fights... yes, yes - but,
When he trounced Obi-wan twice, and appeared invincible next to him, it caused problems later with the discussions regarding Ani and Kenobi (their fight was just one example).
So here is my question to you folks:
Would you of appreciated a Dooku that found fighting three Jedi in AOTC being portrayed as being a little more vulnerable?
Go ahead and discuss.
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Strilo
Title: PT Manager
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
3/11 11:50am
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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He seemed pretty overwhelmed by Yoda...
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AnakinSucks
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
3/11 11:59am
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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I disagree.
If it had gone on Yoda may have taken it, but it was a stalemate in the end and the Count did look very competent (and rather comfortable).
Besides, Yoda is just the type I would have expected to kill Dooku.
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Strilo
Title: PT Manager
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
3/11 12:05pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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What?! A stalemate? Dooku was on the defensive the whole time. He has a panicked look on his face and has to resort to distracting Yoda by trying to kill Anakin and Obi-Wan in order to get away. Yoda is calm and confident when he says "You have fought well, my old padawan." Yoda was owning Dooku all over that hanger.
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#1 on iTunes Most Played: R.E.M. "Imitation of Life"
#1 on iTunes Film Scores: Harry Potter "A Window to the Past"
* * * * * *
"Corrupt, you corrupt and bring corruption to all that you touch.
Hold, you’ll behold and beholden for all that you’ve done."
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AnakinSucks
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
3/11 12:09pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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Even if that is the way in which you see it, Yoda had Darth Sidious himself rattled during their duel.
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
3/11 12:27pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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Buit this thread isn't about Yoda, Darth Sidious or Maul for that matter. And Yoda openly mocked Dooku after his failed Force-feats: "Much to learn, you still have."
AnakinSucks posted:
Besides, Yoda is just the type I would have expected to kill Dooku.
It was originally scripted that Yoda would jump on Dooku's back and raise his saber to kill him, but Lucas changed his mind. IMO, He didn't want Yoda to come across as being that absolute, at least not that early.
AnakinSucks posted:
Would you of appreciated a Dooku that found fighting three Jedi in AOTC being portrayed as being a little more vulnerable?
What I would have appreciated more would be more consistency to the duels. Dooku outright owns Kenobi onfilm on two sep occasions. And it wasn't even close. Yet Anakin; the 20,000 midichlorianted undisciplined prodigy, destroyed him in less than two-minutes. That made sense to me given the first two PT films, except when we got to Mustafar it all went out the window.
Dooku wasn't portrayed inconsistently, the others were...
but this thread isn't about them.
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Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
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Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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AnakinSucks
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
3/11 12:35pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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No,no.
The thread is about how Dooku affects key characters.
I just don't want dead ones discussed if possible, and Darth Maul would have been a prime candidate.
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
3/11 12:54pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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Can you clarify for me what this thread is really about then?
You first asked:
"So here is my question to you folks:
Would you of appreciated a Dooku that found fighting three Jedi in AOTC being portrayed as being a little more vulnerable?
Go ahead and discuss."
And then you just said:
"The thread is about how Dooku affects key characters."
I have already stated that I do not find fault in how Dooku was presented onscreen.(doesn't mean I actually LIKE the character) But in the end, I don't think HE affected them at all. I think the problem lies in how the others' were portrayed, living or dead.
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Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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AnakinSucks
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
3/11 1:07pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
- Date Edited:
3/11 1:08pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
AnakinSucks
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Now, now,
There is a question with some free license for discussion of other characters - like most threads.
My main fear was that this would turn into a Maul v Dooku debate and be closed.
I think that you have already given a genuine answer, and it is not one that I object to.
There is no problem.
If hope that this satisfies you.
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
3/11 1:23pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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I see.
No worries!!
No need to discuss Maul when his thread is still rolling along. 
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Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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MasterEric
Registered:
Dec '07
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Date Posted:
3/11 3:53pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
- Date Edited:
3/11 3:54pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
MasterEric
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I agree with SithStarSlayer a lot on this. I think it was making sense and going just fine until Mustafar. After that I was totally confused.
Before it, seeing Anakin crush Dooku served to illustrate how powerful Anakin has become by defeating this adversary (one on one without help) who had badly beaten Anakin in the previous film, and in my eyes, fought Yoda to a near stalemate. (about that: I think Yoda would have won but as it stands I call it a draw) Then we get to Anakin/Obi-wan and see a supposively even more powerful, dark side Anakin fight Obi-wan evenly, not dominating him at all in my opinion. Anakin dominates Dooku, who dominated Obi-wan on two separate occasions, and yet Anakin comes nowhere close to dominating Obi-wan and then eventually loses. I understand the reasoning behind it to a degree and how anyone on any day can win; Obi-wan having a cool head, Anakin anything but, Obi fighting smarter etc. etc., but that only makes it more perplexing to me, that shouldn't offset natural strengths that much. Anakins natural ability and experience (Obi has more experience but Anakin is hardly a rookie) should allow him to dominate that fight irregardless of smarter fighting strategy, unless Anakin really is not that much stronger than Obi-wan... Based on what I know, as a fan, on the characters and such Anakin should dominate the fight and then lose how he did in the film or something similar, not fight a draw and then lose. Obi-wan fighting smarter doesn't correlate with Anakin dominating the fight, I know Obi fought defensively and that was his strategy but to me he wasn't roughed up enough by Anakin, and I haven't even mentioned the force push incident.
I saw another poster in another thread comment on how with every new viewing of the Mustafar duel he/she enjoyed it less and less, I totally agree with that opinion. It just seems odd that a Dark side Anakin would be unable to truly beat up Obi-wan, especially after hearing of how the Sith use their emotions/passion to fight with.
Let me rephrase that: we see an Anakin that is arguably H*llbent on destroying Obi-wan and yet he is simply not powerful enough to do it; not referring to winning the fight, simply dominating it. Which makes me wonder how Obi-wan lost so badly to Dooku twice, another sith apprentice before that, and yet is able to hold his own against the strongest sith apprentice ever. (personal opinion) Dooku's "smart" fighting strategy should not be that much more powerful a tool than Anakins natural abilities.
Okay went way off on a tangent there, but basically I agree with the thread starter that Dooku by way of his interactions with other characters, totally messes up the fighting/power level dynamics. It would have been much easier if he was not shown to be so powerful in that hangar bay.
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sith_rising
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
3/11 4:23pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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I don't have a problem with Dooku's dual wins over Obi-Wan but sudden loss to Anakin. I am of the opinion that Dooku could have easily killed Anakin in ROTS, had he come out prepared to murder Anakin. He was testing Anakin, pushing him into dark territory, and simply underestimated Anakin's potential. It's no stranger than Dooku fleeing from Yoda, and Yoda fleeing from Sidious. Are we to believe that Sidious would flee from Dooku? Not likely. But as these forums have shown, nothing is certain in the GFFA, and Force skill does not immediately equal victory in a duel. For instance, Maul kills Qui-Gon, who is undoubtedly stronger with the Force, but then loses to his victim's Padawan. It just happens.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
3/11 4:32pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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My personal take on Mustafar is influenced by the following line from the ROTS script:
ANAKIN: You hesitate . . . the flaw of compassion.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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SoonerSean
Registered:
Jul '07
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Date Posted:
3/11 5:15pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
- Date Edited:
3/11 5:17pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
SoonerSean
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The way I view the fight on Mustafar is that Anakin is kicking Obi Wan all over the place. Obi Wan is constantly moving away... retreating... trying to create distance. Every time Anakin get's close - he kicks Obi (literally) across the room... or across the landing pad, etc. Obi's only hope is to continue to draw out the battle... moving constantly and trying to find any opening he can... but mostly retreating and hoping to just simply extend the fight.
When Anakin finally gets to where they are both floating on the river of lava he thinks (in my mind) "Finally... he's got nowhere to run now" and that's when he says "This is the end for you my master." Because he thinks Obi has run out of places to go.
So in my mind... the fight on Mustafar does show that Anakin is far superior to Obi Wan and if they'd stood in one room and fought it out - he'd have won in short order.
My problem with many of the lighstaber/Jedi fights is that so few of them show the full force (no pun intended) and power of the fighters. No one does what Vader did in ESB and start hurling objects WHILE they were fighting. No one uses the force to push/strangle/hold people except Dooku (Ankin and Obi use one force push at the exact same time).
Even the epic battle between Yoda and Palpatine saw them have to stop fighting to hurl the senate pods. I'd have loved to have seen them locked saber to saber and seen senate pods crashing about as Palps tries to hit Yoda with one when another pod flies out of nowhere to smash into it.
Even when Dooku fights Yoda... he stops and looks over and extends a hand to bring down the metal tower onto Obi and Anakin.... all the while Yoda watches instead of moving his lightsaber and slicing Dooku into mincemeat.
I know I might be getting off topic... but I believe that Anakin was on par with Dooku - at least in lighstaber combat - and we DID see that on Mustafar. Obi just did a good job of continually backing away in the hopes of drawing out the fight as long as he could.
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/11 5:45pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
- Date Edited:
3/11 5:48pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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I thought it was important to show Dooku's prowess, so no, I didn't want him to be more vulnerable. Going from the premise that anyone can beat anyone else on any given day - depending on the circumstances - then everything makes perfect sense.
Obi-Wan and Anakin had issues when they fought, so I don't really even count that battle as proof of anything other than they participated in a duel that encompassed far more than lightsabers.
Dooku knocked Obi-Wan and Anakin out; was on the point of being defeated by Yoda and fled; obviously was a master at dueling and later, a much improved Anakin took him out quickly enough.
Anakin killed several Jedi at the temple, some better duelers than Obi-Wan, some perhaps better at strategy too - some without the storm troopers to assist him and with padawans flanking them. Different circumstances, different conditions, mental attitudes, emotions, etc. As Vader he killed even more Jedi, one on one or perhaps in groups, and he was limited by his suit and physical problems. Again, different circumstances and all that.
So in my opinion, Dooku was portrayed perfectly - in every instance, the fight will be a culmination of many things - the prevailing point was that he was awesome, but that is not always enough.
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AnakinSucks
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
3/11 6:09pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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sith-rising:
On the Dooku v Anakin duel.
I think it is a pity that it was so short. It could mean that Anakin was just that damn powerful, but I would have liked to have seen Dooku appear to launch an all out attack on The Chosen one.
For me, this would mean some Sith lightning and/or some type of Vader like attack on Ani after he had been separated from Kenobi.
The battle in this case was so short that some thought that (when coupled with Dooku's taunting) he was not absolutely devoted to going for the kill.
The type of battle that was in the novel by Stover was OTT I thought, but a happy medium would have been perfect.
It seemed to make Dooku very suddenly become weak, as opposed to Anakin becoming stronger.
Just my two cents.
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