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Topic:
The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
3/11 8:49pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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Sometimes you get too into trying to do everything via Makashi. This happens to me in one of the games.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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LordVader66
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
3/11 8:55pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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Dooku looked very compentent versus Yoda. Yoda even complimented him "fought well you have, my former padawan". If Dooku was not at Yoda's level, he was pretty damn close.
As for Anakin's dominance of Dooku that confuses who is more powerful between Skywalker and Kenobi, I don't have problems understanding who is stronger. It's Anakin, easily. In sports, the best team in the league sometimes can't be every team in the league. It's about matchups. Kenobi hung tough on Vader because he trained him. The RotS novel says Anakin and Obiwan fought thousands of times with a lightsaber. Kenobi hung tough and capitalized on a mistake by Anakin. Anakin was the stronger indiviual, however.
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AnakinSucks
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
3/11 9:45pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
- Date Edited:
3/11 9:49pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
AnakinSucks
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Yes LordVader, but my problem is more with the force powers rather than the swordplay.
Dooku dispatched Kenobi at will with a mere wave of the hand.
OTOH, Anakin and Kenobi seemed to be equals in force capability when they fought each other.
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_Sublime_Skywalker_
Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
3/11 9:54pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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It does mess up the whole Anakin vs Obi Wan, just because Obi Wan was mauled [pun intended] by Dooku twice over the years [maybe more during the CW's] and Anakin stomped him. Yet Anakin gets merked by Obi Wan.
I'll have to say that Dooku somewhat holded his ground against Yoda, but he knew in the end it was a lost battle. Thats why he had to harm the two wounded to get Yoda off him before he died.
Anakin is stronger than Obi Wan, though. He shows that just by so easily defeating Dooku when Kenobi stands about a minute against him before he's down. Anakin just needs to stop being so out of control and actually plan his attact strategically instead of just jumping and swinging at Kenobi. Like how he fought Dooku was much more professional. Well except for the whole anger and beheading thing...
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
3/12 2:48am
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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What this thread has illustrated perfectly is the multitude of ways in which people interpret SW scenes. 
Dooku vs OBW AOTC: Dooku toys with OBW; he grins at him when he overpowers him in their force lock (which I believe is a statement of how powerful they are in the force - how else could two feet Yoda beat Dooku and Sideous?)
Dooku vs Anakin AOTC: Dooku was clearly the more powerful, but was still perplexed by Anakin's ferocity and speed.
Dooku vs Yoda AOTC: IMHO, Yoda is testing Dooku. What better way than to see how strong the Sith have become. Yoda doesn't break a sweat at Dooku's force attacks "much to learn you still have" - something tells me Yoda could've force pushed him across the room at that point. After a brief duel (no longer than Anakin vs. Dooku in ROTS), Yoda is done testing him and goes for the "fought well you have, my old apprentice" - as if to say and now I will finish you.
OBW vs Dooku ROTS: OBW is more skilled, and Dooku doesn't appear to own him in a lightsaber duel. OBW is however outclassed force power wise as we see. He shouldn't have been taken so off guard though - that is more Anakin like 
Anakin vs Dooku ROTS: What I can't understand is how Dooku could be on top of things while fighting OBW AND Anakin, kicking Anakin and force choking OBW at the same time, then look like a punk afterwards. Consciously, or subconsciously (from what he was promised from Sideous), he wasn, IMHO, giving 100%! Kudos to Anakin though...
The way I see it is that I agree with SSS. Dooku isn't inconsistant, except for his last two duelling minutes; although that can be explained if we wish  - it's rather the other characters, in particular Anakin!
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/12 4:40am
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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Dooku's mistake was getting Anakin angry - then continuing to fight him using the dark force. Dooku was no match when Anakin was drawing from the same force he was. Obi-wan wasn't using the dark force at Mustafar and he was a better strategist. Even if one discounts all emotions, Obi-Wan should have defeated Anakin under those circumstances the minute Anakin made a mistake - which Anakin did - and Obi-Wan won.
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
3/12 8:05am
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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_Sublime_Skywalker_ posted:
It does mess up the whole Anakin vs Obi Wan, just because Obi Wan was mauled [pun intended] by Dooku twice over the years [maybe more during the CW's] and Anakin stomped him. Yet Anakin gets merked by Obi Wan.
You hit the nail on the head with a 400 pound sledge-hammer. It isn't Dooku, its the others that weren't portrayed correctly. And the sad thing is, Lucas DUMBED-down what Vader had been scripted to do on Mustafar. He purposefully made them more evenly matched, and it doesn't seem right after watching them together against Dooku.
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Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
3/12 9:30am
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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But SSS, having Anakin dominate OBW on Mustafar wouldn't go well with the "Last time we met, I was but the learner. Now, I am the master" - it just wouldn't...
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LemmingLord
Title: PT Manager & CLUE Host
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
3/12 11:27am
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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They could amp Anakin up as high as they wanted to as long as Obi Wan ends up whole, ends up beating Anakin and at the end says a line like, "You are no master..."
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LemmingLord
Take a Leap of Faith and Follow Me
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Darth_Drachonus
Registered:
Oct '05
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Date Posted:
3/12 12:56pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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AnakinSucks posted:
Yes LordVader, but my problem is more with the force powers rather than the swordplay.
Here's what you're overlooking: A Jedi Knight was as powerful as a Jedi Master in the ways of the Force. That just shouldn't be. Especially Anakin versus Kenobi. Kenobi had atleast ten years more experiance and training in the Force than Skywalker did, and Skywalker can block Kenobi's Force Push. It's rather scary when you look at it that way. Kenobi was in his thirties, very powerful, Skywalker was only 23 and his equal. That in my mind is impressive. Most impressive.
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
3/12 1:13pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
- Date Edited:
3/12 1:48pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
SithStarSlayer
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Rossa83 posted:
But SSS, having Anakin dominate OBW on Mustafar wouldn't go well with the "Last time we met, I was but the learner. Now, I am the master" - it just wouldn't...
Not so my fast, my Apprentisss. Vader's smarmy line:"This is the end for you my Master!" (I wish it wasn't so. <-Deleted line) would still cover things nicely if Vader tried the same move twice and failed. That would serve to demonstrate just how arrogant he truly was. I just think it could have been done ALOT better than the mish-mash we were given.
LemmingLord posted:
They could amp Anakin up as high as they wanted to as long as Obi Wan ends up whole, ends up beating Anakin and at the end says a line like, "You are no master..."
Even without that line, the Force could have been with Kenobi and could have been mentioned even, just like Vader says in ANH. All that matters in the end is that Kenobi leave Mustafar unscathed and Vader leave it jacked-up. It's how we get to that point that STILL irritates me.
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Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/12 1:20pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
- Date Edited:
3/12 1:33pm (5 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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I still say that Anakin could have killed Obi-Wan at the point he had him in a force choke. Have a look at the emotion passing over Anakin's face during the choke hold, I don't know how much more obvious he could have been. And Obi-Wan had disarmed him, still he got a grip. No one seems to want to believe that Anakin failed both because of his "underestimating" AND his "compassion" being his weaknesses. You just don't go from 13 years of loving someone like a father/brother to hating their guts completely, it makes no sense.
Anakin didn't love Dooku at all, and we see how that ended up. Dooku was masterful and while he wasn't to kill Anakin, he was supposed to soundly defeat him and he could not. But the whole story of Star Wars is about this kid who is supposed to have such a tight connection to the force that he truly would be able to beat everyone at some point. Drawing on the dark force, he could beat Dooku and likely Obi-Wan as well - but if one cannot see that Anakin himself would look on Dooku and Obi-Wan totally differently as opponents, I don't know what to tell ya. Anakin wanted to kill Obi-Wan about the same amount as Obi-Wan wanted to kill Anakin. Perhaps if the fight had gone differently, without all the breaks, their determination would have served their surface purpose and one would have ended up dead.
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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LordVader66
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
3/12 1:27pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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Lucas's greatest error was not making Obiwan a Mace Windu type character. Lucas has done a poor job of story telling in the prequel trilogy. I would have loved to see Obiwan, Yoda and Mace as some sort triumverate at the top of the Jedi Order. Instead, Kenobi's victory over Maul is more of Maul's brain dead behavior. Even using the dark side against Maul, Maul gets him into the pit. He's owned by Dooku twice, but defeats General Grevious. It's not much of a resume. Plus, add all the stuff about him being the negoiator (sp) and "flying is for driods". He's a council member in RotS, but overall, he isn't really that impressive. Anakin was stronger than him by RotS. But if Obiwan would have been Mace like, a great warrior, and equally powerful as Anakin, with explicit evidence, then everything would have been ok. I get why Obiwan had to be knocked out, so he didn't know how Anakin defeated Dooku, but why not just have the two of them become seperated on the Invisible Hand? Why show Kenobi getting dominated again? Aspects of the film like this frustrate me, because Lucas has failed at story telling. He could have altered dialogue, especially Vader's from ANH. JEJ is still around, if people didn't riot about putting Hayden Christensen in at the end of RotJ then changing Vader's dialogue should have happened.
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AnakinSucks
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
3/12 1:59pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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Darth_Drachonus posted:
Here's what you're overlooking: A Jedi Knight was as powerful as a Jedi Master in the ways of the Force. That just shouldn't be.
I have considered this but it does not stand in my opinion.
Remember that Anakin was not rejected as a Master because he was not strong enough in the force, but rather it was his nature/relationship with Palpatine.
If Dooku disposed of Kenobi with one wave of the hand, then why did he not do the same with Anakin (a guy who did not seem to be that much more powerful than Kenobi)?
Well, something is amiss.
I think that the "dooku factor" played an important role, and others think that it was changes to the original Mustafar duel.
Either way something does not add up.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
3/12 3:16pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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LordVader66 posted:
He could have altered dialogue, especially Vader's from ANH. JEJ is still around, if people didn't riot about putting Hayden Christensen in at the end of RotJ then changing Vader's dialogue should have happened.
You can't alter that line from ANH. People really would riot. It's too iconic.
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