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Topic:
The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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AnakinSucks
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
3/12 3:50pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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Are you sure?
Would people not be pleased if the lines were changed to create more tension?
They could always keep a copy of the original.
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DarthGimpy
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
3/12 4:28pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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To me, someone hit the nail on the head a few posts ago.
Obi-Wan should have been portrayed as stronger than he was portrayed to be. He should have been separated from Anakin on the Invisible Hand, instead of being owned in such a ridiculous fashion. Then he would not have been aware of Anakin being tempted by the Dark Side, but wouldn't appear to be so badly outclassed. I guess they didn't want to show off Grievous with 4 lightsabers until later, but they should have done something to split them up. I also think that having Obi-Wan flip out of the pit on Naboo would have been fine, perhaps Darth Maul could have parried a few blows before getting diced, just so Obi-Wan would have won by good skill instead of because Maul sustained brain damage somehow by just standing there. But that's for another thread.
I'm okay with Dooku's portrayal as a fighter mostly, except I think that they should have made slightly more obvious that Yoda was winning their fight, perhaps knocking Dooku down at some point.
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_Sublime_Skywalker_
Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
3/12 6:00pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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SithStarSlayer posted:
You hit the nail on the head with a 400 pound sledge-hammer. It isn't Dooku, its the others that weren't portrayed correctly. And the sad thing is, Lucas DUMBED-down what Vader had been scripted to do on Mustafar. He purposefully made them more evenly matched, and it doesn't seem right after watching them together against Dooku.
I remember back in the 3SA days when we were all promised a very brutal fight. I remember hearing about how Anakin was going to be throwing rocks and lava at Kenobi, and pretty much beating him down. But what do we get in the end? A good fight, but it had so much more potential. To top that off, Darth Vader is humiliated by a man he was shown to have bested in every aspect minus control.
Anakin destroyed Dooku in about 8 minutes, whereas Obi Wan was out by the second at most. Anakin even lasted longer with Dooku in AOTC (well, minus the lightning ) and impressed Dooku with his aggression and speed.
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'You don't know the Power of the Darkside!'-Darth Vader
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/12 6:06pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
- Date Edited:
3/12 6:06pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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Anakin was supposed to appear a stronger fighter than Obi-Wan. With some of the wild ideas floating around, I can only be happy that George had the idea of SW first. 
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
3/12 6:55pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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The point is, Lucas had it right in the first place. He made Vader look decent, but should have shown us what he could have been... a glimpse of his ultra-bom-bad-ness, prior to the suit. Then, how does he look coming through the smoke in the Tantive IV?
-----signature-----
Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/12 7:21pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
- Date Edited:
3/12 7:22pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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Well according to George, we are supposed to see that in the Animated series...but only viewing it will reveal the truth of that...The last Animated Series showed him to be pretty awesome as a Jedi. All of them in fact...if I am not mistaken, Mace was flying...but my memory could be faulty.
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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AnakinSucks
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
3/12 7:25pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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xx_Anakin_xx:
Anakin was more offensive on Mustafar; that much is agreed upon.
I thought that it was also agreed that blade to blade, they were even.
So, what else are we left with?
The force push - even.
Anakin's taunt, "This is the end for you" - simple trash talk.
And finally, Obi-wan's win.
Take out the win, and it is pretty even as it was shown.
I would have been fine with that if Kenobi was not portrayed as a useless rag-doll when up against Dooku.
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/12 11:24pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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Well we are left with two things more; Anakin's force choke of Obi-Wan (check out his face) and Obi-Wan not killing Vader either during the jump or after the fall (and walking away prior to him catching fire). Make of it what you will, I think it was our clue that the emotional impact of this battle sets it apart from all of the others we saw in the PT.
-----signature-----
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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AnakinSucks
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
3/13 10:18am
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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Well yes, I think I can agree with that.
It is interesting to see where people place the route of the discrepancy however.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
3/13 12:38pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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SithStarSlayer posted:
The point is, Lucas had it right in the first place. He made Vader look decent, but should have shown us what he could have been... a glimpse of his ultra-bom-bad-ness, prior to the suit. Then, how does he look coming through the smoke in the Tantive IV?
Like a guy that let the stormtroopers do the dirty work and only showed up when it was all over, much like his master? 
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
3/13 1:18pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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Boy... did I leave myself wide-open for that, or what?
-----signature-----
Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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_Sublime_Skywalker_
Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
3/13 1:32pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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Well, he did a pretty badass stance.
Kinda.
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'You don't know the Power of the Darkside!'-Darth Vader
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MasterEric
Registered:
Dec '07
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Date Posted:
3/14 1:19pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
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xx_Anakin_xx posted:
Anakin was supposed to appear a stronger fighter than Obi-Wan.
This is the heart of the issue for me, he was suppose to appear stronger and to me, he appears how Anakinsucks describes it, the offensive one only. Not the stronger, the only indication I get of that is when he's on the flying droid thing talking about the end of Obi-Wan; he seems quite fresh and Obi seems warn out. Though that only shows me he has more stamina, not stronger.
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/14 9:39pm
Subject:
RE: The dooku factor (nothing to do with Darth Maul!)
- Date Edited:
3/14 9:42pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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Well stronger has different connotations. He had a stronger connection to the force (more encompassing - midochlordian maniac); and he had awesome foresight (podraces showed this); he had better non-interference instincts (a.k.a. "luck of the gods" some would call it). That means in any duel, he could potentially be the victor, all things in his favor. However, he was not as good at strategy as Obi-Wan yet, that takes more experience; he was way weaker when it came to controling his emotions - unknown if that would ever be possible for Anakin; he was highly egotistical which like emotions, clouded his judgment; he was impetuous which is kind of linked to strategy, something he got better at, but still had a ways to go. They were likely evenly matched in actual dueling and knew one another well in that regard.
So in SW terms (force connection) he was stronger. But as a Jedi overall, he would only be stronger than another if his weaknesses didn't get in the way, which they did at times. With Dooku, he didn't have problems with being impetuous, egotistical or strategy, however his emotions were his weakness (per the novel we see this although it is not so evident in the movie) - however, the "anger" he felt and which was fueling (or detracting from depending on how you look at it) his power, was the same as that being used by his opponent, balancing things out once more, Sith v. Jedi drawing on the dark force to some degree near the end. So Anakin wins.
With Obi-Wan, Anakin gave in to every single possible weakness except strategy until the end. When he took that final jump, all of his weaknesses were showing, ego, impetuousness, lack of strategy and emotions (and here you had Jedi v. Jedi drawing on dark power to boot). Obi-Wan took advantage of it and won. Due to his sheer connection to the force, Anakin may have been able to win suffering only a couple of weaknesses (say anger and impetuousness) - but when all four came into play, he was good as dead meat. On top of it, as I pointed out above, Anakin was also suffering other emotional trauma at the time associated with what he'd done and become and also who he was fighting (Obi-Wan) - those things he buried inside for the fight, but they were still there. Obi-Wan too was not free of emotional burden, but he used his strengths at the right time and was the victor.
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Like a guy that let the stormtroopers do the dirty work and only showed up when it was all over, much like his master?
Hey unfair, I never saw Sidious head out in a TIE fighter and whomp butt - nor lead troops into battle. Anakin might have been a questionable Jedi, but Vader was a BA Sith.
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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