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Topic:
Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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Blackout
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
3/16 12:46pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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In order to be 'above board' in sending the Jedi, Valorum would need to have an official reason for doing so. He hasn't got one because the Trade Federation are denying all knowledge of the blockade when they're in the Senate. In order to ascertain the situation legally, he needs to launch an inquiry. However, the level of petty bureaucracy (and corruption) won't let this investigation start properly within a reasonable timeframe (if at all).
So, The Naboo say there's a problem, The Trade Federation deny there's a problem, and the Chancellor knows there's a problem. The most straightforward way of dealing with this is to send a couple of Jedi negotiators to intervene on the sly, because if it comes to a fight, the Jedi should be able to take care of themselves. Once the Jedi have 'persuaded' the Trade Federation to drop the blockade act (bear in mind it wasn't an invasion at that point), everybody gets to move on and there's no red tape involved.
Palpatine says later on that the government has become spineless, overly-bureaucratic, corrupt and inefficient (although that's largely down to him  ) . It's the equivalent of sending black-ops in, only at that point the Republic had no army to draw from.
Valorum is doing his best to help. Which is probably one of the main reasons Palpatine dislikes him.
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drg4
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
3/16 1:00pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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Loco_for_Lucas posted:
Why would sending Jedi be illegal or wrong? Part of their duties involves settling disputes. There was no reason for them to be sent in secretly. If it was so bad, Gunray could just narc on Valorum to the Senate as soon as it is revealed the diplomats are Jedi. The fact the Jedi needed to be disposed of shows they were not in the wrong in being there.
As far as I see it…
Valorum is aware that the transgalatic corporations control a good number of the politicians, who would in turn stall negotiations. So he bypasses legal channels so as to spare a free society impending economic exploitation.
Gunray can't narc on Valorum because the Republic his people (partially) control is still operating under the pretense that it is, in fact, a republic. Imagine the representatives of Halliburton marching into Congress demanding they get a bigger piece of the action in Iraq. They can't quite do that—gotta keep up the charade that the military-industrial complex doesn’t run government.
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
3/16 1:21pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
- Date Edited:
3/16 1:29pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
ShaneP
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Loco for Lucas
Why would sending Jedi be illegal or wrong?
Blackout answers this.
voodoopooduu
If one of the jobs of the Jedi is to negotiate, why send them secretly ?
I would think it would be common place for the Chancellor to send Jedi to negotiate. And sending them "unannounced" would be within his powers. In fact, if the Chancellor didnt do it in this case, it would have been negligent.
You have to remember the state of the chancellorship during TPM though. Valorum's administration is mired in accusations and scandals. He's in a weakened position in the senate. Thus, he has to secretly dispatch the jedi in order to forestall the start of a war. Otherwise, the senate would just remain "bogged down in procedures" dealing with the dispute.
edit
This might be another topic but the question I always had regarding the federation alliance with the sith is what do the federation have to gain by the bargain? What is their reward for going along with the sith?
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drg4
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
3/16 2:11pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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Dooku's cadre was comprised of crony-capitalists, so I reckon the Trade Federation stood to gain in respect to franchise expansion and tariff controls.
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
3/16 3:00pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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Yeah, Aotc does expand on what the reward might be.
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Blackout
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
3/16 3:14pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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ShaneP posted:
the question I always had regarding the federation alliance with the sith is what do the federation have to gain by the bargain? What is their reward for going along with the sith?
The way I understood it, money. At least with the Naboo blockade. The TF wants to charge the Naboo (at first, expanding to more systems later) more money for use of 'their' trade lanes. The TF has the resources to physically blockade the planet and demand an increase in taxation, the Sith can pull the strings to legalize it; that would be the initial deal. The more money the TF make with each successful blockade/increase, the more powerful they become. They probably think they can dispense with the help of the Sith later in the game.
The question they should be asking themselves, however, is what's in it for the Sith?. The Nemoidians aren't aware of Sidious' alter-ego, and so can't be aware of the invasion being part of a ruse so that Palpatine can gain sympathy in the Senate and assume the position of Supreme Chancellor. I don't think I've read what particular story Sidious had spun to the Trade Federation. Still, with greed clouding their judgement, I don't suppose it had to be particularly convincing. A lesson in there ,I think 
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Loco_for_Lucas
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
3/16 6:05pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
- Date Edited:
3/16 6:07pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Loco_for_Lucas
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Blackout posted:
In order to be 'above board' in sending the Jedi, Valorum would need to have an official reason for doing so. He hasn't got one because the Trade Federation are denying all knowledge of the blockade when they're in the Senate.
Actually, the Federation never denies the blockade. It's their way of expressing their dissatisfaction with the Republic and the Senate. What they deny is the invasion, and the bureaucracy and red tape comes in when there are suspected allegations brought up without proof. That's why the Jedi needed to be eliminated. They acted as potential witnesses to what was an invasion in the making.
Had George thought it through a little better, he would have had Obi-wan and Qui-gon have some sort of "holocam" or something in their utility belts and take pictures of the armies and the actual invasion itself. They happened to have handy-dandy breathing apparatuses, so a camera would be a reasonable piece of equipment to have out on the field. Not only that, but it would have given Maul more of an incentive to track them down and keep them from making it to Coruscant...to destroy the evidence. The story would have benefited greatly from an "object that must be protected" story, like the Death Star plans, but carried by the Jedi and a more dangerous foe pursuing them.
Blackout posted:
In order to ascertain the situation legally, he needs to launch an inquiry. However, the level of petty bureaucracy (and corruption) won't let this investigation start properly within a reasonable timeframe (if at all).
An investigation is one thing, but sending ambassadors on a diplomatic mission is another. Jedi act as ambassadors and diplomats, negotiation is a part of their duty; there would be no need to send Jedi secretly to a legal blockade. If anything, it would be one of those procedural things they'd do on their way to another mission. "Oh look, another diplomatic chat session." As far as they'd be concerned, it'd be a waste of their time. There were no larger implications before TPM about the blockade. It was perfectly legal, but a nuisance to deal with. It's not til the Jedi arrive that things are bigger than they seemed.
The Feds were ticked off businessmen who were lashing out at the Republic and took their army and did a sit-in on one of their planets as an act of defiance. There were no "seeds of civil war" yet. It was a splinter faction acting out, one that could have been handled by some civil words by a couple of Jedi. It is out of their nature to act so boldly, and we see why, but up until then, there was no need to believe the blockade was anything more than just a rogue corporation that was getting too big for its britches.
Blackout posted:
So, The Naboo say there's a problem, The Trade Federation deny there's a problem, and the Chancellor knows there's a problem. The most straightforward way of dealing with this is to send a couple of Jedi negotiators to intervene on the sly, because if it comes to a fight, the Jedi should be able to take care of themselves. Once the Jedi have 'persuaded' the Trade Federation to drop the blockade act (bear in mind it wasn't an invasion at that point), everybody gets to move on and there's no red tape involved.
Palpatine says later on that the government has become spineless, overly-bureaucratic, corrupt and inefficient (although that's largely down to him ) . It's the equivalent of sending black-ops in, only at that point the Republic had no army to draw from.
Hmmm, I wouldn't say "Black-Ops." because they're not used as diplomats.
True, the government has grown useless, by and large, but in this case, the Senate would have probably APPROVED sending Jedi because, as you said, it would be the straightforward way of handling the situation, and in this case, it was handling a small, unruly faction that basically didn't want to pay its taxes. Settling the dispute means taxation can resume, and if money talks in the Senate, then they'd be listening at this point. They garnered support when allegations of treason came up without proof. That's when the matter changed.
Blackout posted:
Valorum is doing his best to help. Which is probably one of the main reasons Palpatine dislikes him.
He's the goody-goody that makes Palpatine grimace.
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Loco_for_Lucas
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
3/16 6:24pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
- Date Edited:
3/16 6:36pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Loco_for_Lucas
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drg4 posted:
As far as I see it…
Valorum is aware that the transgalatic corporations control a good number of the politicians, who would in turn stall negotiations. So he bypasses legal channels so as to spare a free society impending economic exploitation.
Not at the time of TPM though. The corporations hadn't come together yet. One corporation might have had a Senator or two, but they weren't working together yet. If the corporations had a greater influence in the Senate, if the politicians were TRULY in their pockets, then there wouldn't be a taxation on trade routes and there would have never been a blockade. No, at this point, the corporations were unorganized little splinters that were being abused and taken advantage of by the big, bad government...they were being gouged by the very Senators they were paying to act as their "voice" in the Senate. THAT'S why they came together and rebelled, but that happened later.
drg4 posted:
Gunray can't narc on Valorum because the Republic his people (partially) control is still operating under the pretense that it is, in fact, a republic. Imagine the representatives of Halliburton marching into Congress demanding they get a bigger piece of the action in Iraq. They can't quite do that—gotta keep up the charade that the military-industrial complex doesn’t run government.
I get what you're saying, but I don't think that applies to the scenario presented in the movie (and also to prevent this thread from being ruined by introducing a debate of real-world politics ). Basically, the Trade Federation and the businesses in the Galaxy, are upset that their routine operations are being abused by the government, and they lash out. It would be like the US government getting greedy and taxing Microsoft 50% for every computer with Windows, and Bill Gates reacts by making a patch that effectively shuts down every Windows system in the US (theorhetical, but you get what I'm saying ), and Microsoft's lobbyists using some "connections" in Congress to gum up the process a bit.
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voodoopuuduu
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
3/16 8:27pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
- Date Edited:
3/16 8:33pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
voodoopuuduu
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An investigation is one thing, but sending ambassadors on a diplomatic mission is another. Jedi act as ambassadors and diplomats, negotiation is a part of their duty; there would be no need to send Jedi secretly to a legal blockade. If anything, it would be one of those procedural things they'd do on their way to another mission. "Oh look, another diplomatic chat session." As far as they'd be concerned, it'd be a waste of their time. There were no larger implications before TPM about the blockade. It was perfectly legal, but a nuisance to deal with. It's not til the Jedi arrive that things are bigger than they seemed.
Correct, there was no need for Lucas to use the term "secretly" in the opening crawl.
This would have fit just as well :
......
While the congress of the Republic endlessly debates this alarming chain of
events, the Supreme Chancellor has dispatched two Jedi Knights, the
guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, to settle the conflict.....
Not one person would have questioned the "secretly" omission.
And why send Qui-Gon Jinn and his padawan ?? According to the Wookiepedia, Coleman Trebor was the renowned diplomat, send him instead. 
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Loco_for_Lucas
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
3/16 8:48pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
- Date Edited:
3/16 9:23pm (8 edits total)
Edited By:
Loco_for_Lucas
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Yeah, it could have read:
THE PHANTOM MENACE
It is a time of turmoil.
The Republic's taxation
policy has forced the
TRADE FEDERATION to
take drastic measures.
They have surrounded the
peaceful planet of Naboo
in an attempt to force
their queen into a treaty.
The Supreme Chancellor has
sent two JEDI KNIGHTS,
the guardians of truth and
justice, in an effort to come
to a peaceful negotiation.
But little do they know more
sinister forces are at work...
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voodoopuuduu
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
3/16 9:05pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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Yeah, and just who was this "secret" kept from ???
The Jedi council obviously knew. The Neimoidians knew. Palpatine then knew. The whole planet of Naboo knew. And the Senators could care less.
Was it a "secret" because it didnt appear on the 11 o'clock holonet news ?
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Loco_for_Lucas
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
3/16 9:08pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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The secret was kept from Jar Jar and Anakin.
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
3/18 9:30am
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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The Neimoidians did not know. Don't you remember: "What did you say?"
TC-14: The ambassadors are jedi knights I believe.
The Neimoidians did not know the jedi would become involved. And when they told Sidious, he told them the chancellor should never have brought them into this.
The jedi were the one stumbling block in the way.
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latverian33
Registered:
Feb '08
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Date Posted:
3/18 10:42am
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
- Date Edited:
3/18 11:20am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Strilo
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The only answer is clearly poor writting on behalf of Lucas.
The man had been retired for what?...20 yrs from directing and writting?
Then all the sudden wants to take on the task of writting and directing the prequels?
Heaven forbid he spend some of his countless millions to hire a good screen writter and director.
Not to mention a worthy producer that has the guts to stand up to him (maybe like gary kurtz)
Oh well. it's all done and history now.
At least we have "cough" "cough" the clone wars cartoon coming to theaters.
Strilo edit: That last bit was not acceptable.
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voodoopuuduu
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
3/18 11:10am
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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The Neimoidians did not know. Don't you remember: "What did you say?"
TC-14: The ambassadors are jedi knights I believe.
The Neimoidians certainly knew when they got there, thats what counts.
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