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Topic:
Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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HookLineAndSinker
Title:
Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
3/23 6:54am
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
- Date Edited:
3/23 6:58am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
HookLineAndSinker
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Valorum secretly dispatched two Jedi Knights just to catch the Neimoidians off guard. It was clear the Viceroy expected ambassadors, just not Jedi Knights. Apparently it's a rare thing at that point in Galactic history for Jedi to get involved with trivial Trade disputes. Gunray expected weak and easily fooled politicians to come. Perhaps even some he could bribe.
Did Sidious know Valorum would send Jedi? It's hard to say. Considering how much of a micro-manager he is, you'd think he would be well aware of a move such as that possibly occurring. Especially since he had the ear of the Chancellor apparently. If the Jedi didn't get involved, the Trade Federation would have eventually taken over Naboo, Queen Amidala would have signed a treaty making their occupation legal, and Palpatine would have informed the Senate of the tragedy. Of course one wonders who would have called for a vote of no confidence had Amidala not done so, but that may be navigating his plan too much to a point that I'm not sure Lucas has ever thought about. But ultimately Palpatine would have got what he wanted anyways I should think.
The only real indication that Sidious did not want the Jedi involved so much is that he sent Darth Maul to kill them. Had he not cared so much about the Federation succeeding, then he surely wouldn't have sent an enforcer like that in the end battle. Sidious did want Amidala and all involved dead after the Senate scene because he didn't need them anymore. Gunray probably would have followed out those orders after she made the occupation legal.
So why didn't the Jedi testify to the Senate? Well they were never given the chance. Testifying (at least in most governments) occurs during committee hearings. Lott Dod and company wanted to send the matter to some sort of commission to get to the truth of the matter because no matter what the Jedi told those investigating, the Federation would have bribed enough to screw Naboo over. Thus why Amidala did not want it sent to a committee. Amidala's appearance before the Senate didn't seem to be the normal thing either. Valorum called a special session of congress to hear their plea. Though as Palpatine all but told her, there was no way the Senate would be able to make some sort of decision with just that. Facts would need checking, a defense needed time to prepare. Under Valorum's thinking, she and Palpatine were just going to lay the charge before the Senate and that's it. To make sure the galaxy knew what was possibly going on and gain sympathy for the Queen and her people.
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
3/23 2:39pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
- Date Edited:
3/23 2:54pm (4 edits total)
Edited By:
ShaneP
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voodoopooduu
The Neimoidians certainly knew when they got there, thats what counts.
But that isn't what counts because by the time the jedi are there, it's too late. Sidious then has the Neimoidians try and take care of them.
Remember:
Gunray: It's too late now.(after the jedi are let loose)
They're too far along in the deal with Sidious to back out. The blockade is there and now the jedi.
So the jedi were a secret from everyone up until it was too late for the senate to try and block them: when they're onboard the federation ship, ready to force a settlement.
HLS
Valorum secretly dispatched two Jedi Knights just to catch the Neimoidians off guard
That's exactly right. That way the negotiations would be short with the cowardly federation types.
That's why Sidious is angry. He didn't want to show his cards so soon. But he had to accelerate his plans and begin the invasion before he was ready once jedi involvement upped the ante.
HLS
If the Jedi didn't get involved, the Trade Federation would have eventually taken over Naboo, Queen Amidala would have signed a treaty making their occupation legal, and Palpatine would have informed the Senate of the tragedy. Of course one wonders who would have called for a vote of no confidence had Amidala not done so
I'm not sure anyone would have had to do so if Naboo was taken over and the occupation was legalised. It would be similar to what happened to Austria by Nazi Germany: legal takeover(at least on the surface).
Palpatine would have continued to thrive in that environment with a weakened chancellor.
What Amidala did was give him an even greater opportunity: taking the chancellorship much sooner than hoped.
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voodoopuuduu
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
3/23 10:44pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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HookLineAndSinker posted:
Valorum secretly dispatched two Jedi Knights just to catch the Neimoidians off guard. It was clear the Viceroy expected ambassadors, just not Jedi Knights. Apparently it's a rare thing at that point in Galactic history for Jedi to get involved with trivial Trade disputes. Gunray expected weak and easily fooled politicians to come. Perhaps even some he could bribe.
It shouldnt be a rare thing because a large proportion of Jedi specialize in negotiations.
And the blockade of a planet cant be called a trivial trade dispute. I agree Gunray certainly expected weak negotiators. But since it was a blockade of a planet, maybe he should have logically expected some force, excuse the pun.
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ZebOswalt
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
3/24 3:46am
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
- Date Edited:
3/24 3:51am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
ZebOswalt
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Jango10 posted:
This leads me to another question:
Why did Palpatine order the Jedi to be killed? They were on a diplomatic mission from the Chancellor. Why would he risk drawing attention to the situation by killing them? If they had been killed, surely more Jedi would have been sent to investigate. This would have probably led to the Senate taking action against the Trade Federation and ending the blockade. So why the risk? The only explanation I could think of was, "I will make it legal."
Is there any answer to these possible plot holes? Or did they just happen to because the script says so, and the story needed to be moved forward?
Simple He knew the trade Fed couldn't kill them. He already saw the droid army as flawed. That's why he created the clone one. Qui-Gon was probly well known enough for him to know the droids wouldn't take him or his student. Whom was as Qui-Gon himself said ready ti be a Jedi any way. Plus the naboo troops. The order was so the trade fedration would try. And have the consle an enamey. With them doubting all of this probly thanks to seeds Palpatine had planted. Using his powers. He simply waited for Amidala to ask for him to be voted in as Chancler. If need be he'd use his powers to protect. Notable he didn't send Darth Maul till later. If he wanted them dead Maul would have been there to lead the trade fedration. What he did was to just keep em bussy and set into motion the events that made him Chancellor. Thanx for your time.
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HookLineAndSinker
Title:
Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
3/24 3:46am
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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voodoopuuduu posted:
HookLineAndSinker posted:
Valorum secretly dispatched two Jedi Knights just to catch the Neimoidians off guard. It was clear the Viceroy expected ambassadors, just not Jedi Knights. Apparently it's a rare thing at that point in Galactic history for Jedi to get involved with trivial Trade disputes. Gunray expected weak and easily fooled politicians to come. Perhaps even some he could bribe.
It shouldnt be a rare thing because a large proportion of Jedi specialize in negotiations.
And the blockade of a planet cant be called a trivial trade dispute. I agree Gunray certainly expected weak negotiators. But since it was a blockade of a planet, maybe he should have logically expected some force, excuse the pun.
Qui-Gon Jinn himself called it a trivial trade dispute. To me it sounded like these things happen and sending Jedi as Ambassadors is suspicious in that makes the situation out to be more serious than they usually are. So sending Jedi to Gunray freaked him out in that he thought they were on to his plans and he didn't expect it.
Though it seems like Dofine expected them with his line "I knew it, they're here to fcrce a settlement!" I get the picture that if anything went wrong like a flea farting on deck three he would have said "I knew it, we shouldn't be doing this!"
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the_immolated_one
Registered:
Sep '06
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Date Posted:
3/24 9:09am
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
- Date Edited:
3/25 1:32pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Dark_Jedi_Kenobi
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The thing is: All Lucas is really doing is showing just how screwed up the central government is.
The dialogue suggests that the blockade is legal. Right? In the real world a blockade is an act of war. That's why when Kennedy blockaded Cuba he was careful not to call it a blockade but instead called it a quarantine.
Lucas wants you to ask questions all through Star Wars. Lucas doesn't just want you to sit there unless that's what you want to do. Lucas wants you to be an active viewer while watching Star Wars. He wants you to ask why do negotiators have to be sent in secret? The crawl clearly states that Jedi are the guardians of peace and justice but then why do Jedi need to be sent on a clandestine mission to do their job? Why have these Jedi around at all if you can't use them as negotiators since that is their primary job? Because the central government is screwed up beyond belief.
DJK edit: Remember to discuss the films, not the fans. Everyone is allowed to have an opinion but let's make sure we express it in a respectful way.
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
3/24 5:38pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
- Date Edited:
3/24 5:42pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
ShaneP
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the immolated one remember: the films not the fans. 
But I agree he was showing us how inept the government had become. That is a theme running throughout the film.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
3/25 5:11pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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ZebOswalt posted:
If he wanted them dead Maul would have been there to lead the trade fedration.
He didn't know they were coming.
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voodoopuuduu
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
3/30 2:25pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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HookLineAndSinker posted:
voodoopuuduu posted:
HookLineAndSinker posted:
Valorum secretly dispatched two Jedi Knights just to catch the Neimoidians off guard. It was clear the Viceroy expected ambassadors, just not Jedi Knights. Apparently it's a rare thing at that point in Galactic history for Jedi to get involved with trivial Trade disputes. Gunray expected weak and easily fooled politicians to come. Perhaps even some he could bribe.
It shouldnt be a rare thing because a large proportion of Jedi specialize in negotiations.
And the blockade of a planet cant be called a trivial trade dispute. I agree Gunray certainly expected weak negotiators. But since it was a blockade of a planet, maybe he should have logically expected some force, excuse the pun.
Qui-Gon Jinn himself called it a trivial trade dispute. To me it sounded like these things happen and sending Jedi as Ambassadors is suspicious in that makes the situation out to be more serious than they usually are. So sending Jedi to Gunray freaked him out in that he thought they were on to his plans and he didn't expect it.
Though it seems like Dofine expected them with his line "I knew it, they're here to fcrce a settlement!" I get the picture that if anything went wrong like a flea farting on deck three he would have said "I knew it, we shouldn't be doing this!"
Well, if the blockade of a planet is an trivial trade dispute thing that happens almost daily and doesnt merit the level of Jedi attention, then the GFFA and the Jedi are 1000X more messed up than anyone on these boards can possibly imagine. 
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
3/30 4:30pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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The one thing that confuses me about the whole thing is the opening crawl speaks of this "alarming chain of events" while Qui-Gon speaks of a "trivial trade dispute".
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FirBholg
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/1 2:52am
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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The Federation blockade was "alarming" precisely because the dispute that led up to it was "trivial". The Jedi were dispatched because the Trade Federation was behaving with unusual vigor in blockading Naboo. They were sent in secret, because the Chancellor did not have the authorization of the Senate to send Jedi, as the Senate was "bogged down in procedure".
The matter is trivial, the blockade is alarming, the Senate didn't authorize a Jedi delegation - the Chancellor asked the Council for help before matters could get further out of hand. I really don't see a plot hole here.
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DARTH-SMELLY-FEET
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
4/1 4:46am
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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What if the Jedi were successful in there mission and made the TF abandon there blockade of Naboo?
Would they then go back to the senate and advise them of this only to be told we don't believe you and require further proof?
Why send them at all if the Jedi's report wasn't going to be listened to.
Also why would the Chancellor require the senate's permission to send the Jedi?
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yodas_waiter
Registered:
Oct '06
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Date Posted:
4/2 4:14am
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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DARTH-SMELLY-FEET posted:
What if the Jedi were successful in there mission and made the TF abandon there blockade of Naboo?
Would they then go back to the senate and advise them of this only to be told we don't believe you and require further proof?
Why send them at all if the Jedi's report wasn't going to be listened to.
No need for a report since the agreement that would be reached would be off the record. The whole point of secretely dispatching the Jedi is to not involve the Senate, at all.
DARTH-SMELLY-FEET posted:
Also why would the Chancellor require the senate's permission to send the Jedi?
Because the Jedi are the servants of the Senate, not of the Chancellor
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DARTH-SMELLY-FEET
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
4/2 4:47am
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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No need for a report since the agreement that would be reached would be off the record. The whole point of secretely dispatching the Jedi is to not involve the Senate, at all.
So then the Chancellor goes back to the senate and says, dont worry everyone we have reached an agreement and the blockade is over. And if someone asks him how this happened what would he say? I cant tell you, you'll have to trust me.
Because the Jedi are the servants of the Senate, not of the Chancellor
And who's the boss in the senate...... the chancellor.
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yodas_waiter
Registered:
Oct '06
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Date Posted:
4/2 10:10am
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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So then the Chancellor goes back to the senate and says, dont worry everyone we have reached an agreement and the blockade is over. And if someone asks him how this happened what would he say? I cant tell you, you'll have to trust me.
No, there is no going back to the Senate. The Jedi were secretely dispatched to the Trade Federation so as to reach a secret settlement which would lift the blockade. Once the blockade is lifted, the Trade Federation would perhaps give an official reason as to why the blockade was lifted.
And who's the boss in the senate...... the chancellor.
The Chancellor is not the boss of the Senate, he is the Head of the Senate. There is a differance. It's heavily implied that the Galactic Republic is built on the principles of parliamentarism, i.e. the Head of the State cannot act without the majority of the parliament, or in this case the Senate, supporting him. Valorum is portrayed as being at the mercy of the Senate, Palpatine is given emergency powers at the behest of the Senate etc. The Senate is portrayed as the source of power one must seize to control of the Senate, that's why Palpatine states: "I am the Senate"
And, it's also openly stated in ROTS where the allegiance of the Jedi lie by Obi-Wan: Our allegiance is to the Senate...
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