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Topic:
Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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Strilo
Title: PT Manager
aka Dr. John Dorian
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
4/2 10:34am
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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Bingo.
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timmoishere
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
4/2 2:06pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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DARTH-SMELLY-FEET posted:
Because the Jedi are the servants of the Senate, not of the Chancellor
And who's the boss in the senate...... the chancellor.
Chancellors come and go, but the Senate stays the same. The Jedi don't have any allegiance to any particular Chancellor, but rather to the Senate as a whole.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/2 5:21pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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yodas_waiter posted:
The Senate is portrayed as the source of power one must seize to control of the Senate
Well, I should certainly hope so!
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DARTH-SMELLY-FEET
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
4/3 5:53am
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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If its the Jedi's job to negotiate why sent them secretly?
Sending secretly could have been for there protection it doesn't mean the chancellor needed the approval of the senate to do so.
When they returned surely they advised the chancellor and the council that the TF have indeed invaded Naboo. Why weren't they listened to?
I don't believe the chancellor would have to get the approval of the entire senate to send Jedi Knights on a mission, this is something Chancellors have been doing since there have been Jedi to send.
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Strilo
Title: PT Manager
aka Dr. John Dorian
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
4/3 9:57am
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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I think the point being made is that the political situation had become unstable and unhealthy enough that the Chancellor HAD to do things in secret sometimes to bypass the corruption in the Senate.
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Cryogenic
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/3 6:22pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
- Date Edited:
4/3 6:25pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Cryogenic
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DARTH-SMELLY-FEET posted:
If its the Jedi's job to negotiate why sent them secretly?
Sending secretly could have been for there protection it doesn't mean the chancellor needed the approval of the senate to do so.
When they returned surely they advised the chancellor and the council that the TF have indeed invaded Naboo. Why weren't they listened to?
I don't believe the chancellor would have to get the approval of the entire senate to send Jedi Knights on a mission, this is something Chancellors have been doing since there have been Jedi to send.
Evidently, you didn't read the cogent responses herein. Let me summarise them for you:
posted:
If its the Jedi's job to negotiate why sent them secretly?
Because it is not the Jedi's job to negotiate without Senate approval. Valorum did not have Senate approval, so he dispacted two of them in secret.
posted:
Sending secretly could have been for there protection it doesn't mean the chancellor needed the approval of the senate to do so.
Yes, it does. The title crawl makes this implicit: "While the Congress of the Republic endlessly debates this alarming chain of events, the Supreme Chancellor has secretly dispatched two Jedi Knights to settle the conflict . . . . " The clauses are linked; the former provides the context for the latter.
posted:
When they returned surely they advised the chancellor and the council that the TF have indeed invaded Naboo. Why weren't they listened to?
They may have had a word in the Chancellor's ear. In fact, dialogue by Qui-Gon implies this very thing. But there's informing the Chancellor and there's convincing the Senate -- two mutually exclusive things.
posted:
I don't believe the chancellor would have to get the approval of the entire senate to send Jedi Knights on a mission, this is something Chancellors have been doing since there have been Jedi to send.
Well, you can believe it or not, but the films reveal that the Chancellor can only act with the approval of the Senate, which is Valorum's downfall and Palpatine's gain.
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Another critical point here (which I haven't seen raised):
The dispatching of the Jedi in secret is the first act of secrecy / deception in a series riddled with secrets and deceptions. The "good guys" are undone by their lies and communication breakdowns in the PT. This particular deception is merely one of many that has serious consequences in the long term. Very erudite of Lucas.
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DARTH-SMELLY-FEET
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
4/4 4:06am
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
- Date Edited:
4/4 1:26pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Dark_Jedi_Kenobi
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I dont think any of my questions have been answered with fact. For me its a case of very very bad writing.
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Cryogenic
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/4 6:05am
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
- Date Edited:
4/4 1:29pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Dark_Jedi_Kenobi
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DARTH-SMELLY-FEET posted:
For me its a case of very very bad writing.
The films are pretty plain on this issue. This is not a matter of subjective opinion; it's a matter of objective fact via logical infererence. There is no "bad writing" in the manner you purport.
Hope this helps.
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I have a great admiration for George. These films are very well-intentioned. All right, they make tremendous amounts of money and appeal to kids, but they say good things, and they say them in a broad way. I believe in the Star Wars films.
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DARTH-SMELLY-FEET
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
4/4 8:32am
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
- Date Edited:
4/4 1:34pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Dark_Jedi_Kenobi
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Opinions dont answer questions. Back up what you're posting with some facts, then we'll talk. And yes its bad writing from a self confessed terrible writer.
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Dark_Jedi_Kenobi
Title: Manager:
• Prequel Trilogy
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
4/4 1:28pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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Alright both of you knock it off, this back and forth stops now.
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Nordom
Registered:
Jun '04
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Date Posted:
4/5 9:12am
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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Cryogenic posted:
posted:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If its the Jedi's job to negotiate why sent them secretly?
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Because it is not the Jedi's job to negotiate without Senate approval. Valorum did not have Senate approval, so he dispacted two of them in secret.
That is not totally certain. All the crawl says is that the senate is debating the TF's blockade and that Valorum sent two jedi without telling the senate.
It is never said that he MUST have the senate's approval for this or if this broke the law in some way. It might be so, or it might be that it is custom for the senate to give their approval first but not a requirement. Or that it is custom for the chancellor to inform the senate first but he does not need their approval.
Anyway from the film it seems like the TF knew that ambassadors were coming and the only suprise was that they were jedi. So did the senate approve to send ambassadors or was that Valorums doing as well? That is not made clear but since the TF knew and they did have a man in the senate so if the senate MUST decide to send ambassadors and no such thing had been decided then the TF would know this and they could simply refuse to see the ambassadors or even to let them come aboard. This did not happen so I would think that the sending of the ambassadors was not in violation of republic law.
Valorum did make them jedi instead which suprised the TF and Palpatine but noone ever says that this was in some way illegal on the part of Valorum or that he exceeded his mandate as chancellor.
Lastly when the jedi come back the situation has grown beyond a trade disspute and blockade and war has now started and the TF tried to kill two jedi ambassadors.
So even IF Valorum overstepped his authority the situation is dire enough to call for imideate action or who knows where the TF will attack next. So why would Valorum not use the testimony of the two jedi, the jedi order is respected and their words would carry lots of weight.
For myself I find this part to be rather weak, most of the jedi and the others on Coruscant seem remarkably unconcerned with a major thing like a planetray invasion and war breaking out. The jedi council seem almost bored by the whole thing and seem to treat it like some minor annoyance that will hopefully go away on it's own.
As for Valorum, his character is inconsistent. First he very bold and daring and apparently breaks all manner of rules and protocoll and sends two jedi becasue he is fed up with the senate not getting off their behinds. But then when the jedi return and tells him that the situation is much worse than he thought then he suddenly becomes very weak and will not do anything.
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Nordom
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
4/6 12:53pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
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The point remains that Valorum sent the jedi secretly because the senate was corrupt and scandals had weakened his clout in that body.
He had to send them secretly. He couldn't send them overtly.
"Turmoil has engulfed the Galactic Republic"
The question I have then is:
Why do the jedi obey Valorum if they serve the senate(i.e. "The Republic") and not any particular chancellor?
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Cryogenic
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/6 3:23pm
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
- Date Edited:
4/6 3:32pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Cryogenic
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Nordom posted:
It is never said that he MUST have the senate's approval for this or if this broke the law in some way. It might be so, or it might be that it is custom for the senate to give their approval first but not a requirement. Or that it is custom for the chancellor to inform the senate first but he does not need their approval.
If the Chancellor authorises something, it must be sanctioned by the Senate. That's the way the Republic is set up. And that's why the government has stagnated -- i.e. the senators can't agree and can't sanction ("endlessly debates"). Palpatine later fixes this for himself by legally upgrading the powers of the Chancellor, giving himself more and more autonomy (i.e. "Emergency Powers" in AOTC and ROTS). Watch his ascent. He starts off from the sidelines, then he moves into the Chancellorship, then he upgrades his powers, then he upgrades them again, then he dissolves the Senate altogether. The films are about Palpatine changing things to suit himself. But he does this by influencing others to do illicit things, while he keeps his hands clean. Starting as he means to go on, he gets someone else to screw themself over; that someone here is Valorum. If Valorum admits he sent Jedi in secret, he could be kicked out of office for breaking the law; if he doesn't admit it, his leadership is pooped on and a vote of no confidence is called by Padme. The outcome is the same in both cases: Palpatine wins, Valorum loses.
Nordom posted:
Lastly when the jedi come back the situation has grown beyond a trade disspute and blockade and war has now started and the TF tried to kill two jedi ambassadors.
So even IF Valorum overstepped his authority the situation is dire enough to call for imideate action or who knows where the TF will attack next. So why would Valorum not use the testimony of the two jedi, the jedi order is respected and their words would carry lots of weight.
Because this would open a fresh scandal about his own leadership. His resignation would be called for -- and would almost certainly be taken in the poisoned well of the Republic. Palpatine thoroughly screwed him over by advising him to send Jedi Knights. He knew Valorum was in a Catch-22 situation from then on. But you're forgetting the TF's own words in all of this: "There's no proof!" They outright deny an invasion of any sort. Combatting one bit of illegality (invasion) with another (Jedi Knights sent in secret to "persuade" the TF) is a slipperly slope; in many ways, it's analgous to saying "an eye for an eye", which the saga thoroughly refutes.
Nordom posted:
For myself I find this part to be rather weak, most of the jedi and the others on Coruscant seem remarkably unconcerned with a major thing like a planetray invasion and war breaking out. The jedi council seem almost bored by the whole thing and seem to treat it like some minor annoyance that will hopefully go away on it's own.
Maybe the Jedi are too provincial? Maybe they worry about things in the wrong proportions? Maybe they have no empathy? Maybe Lucas intended all of this?
Nordom posted:
As for Valorum, his character is inconsistent. First he very bold and daring and apparently breaks all manner of rules and protocoll and sends two jedi becasue he is fed up with the senate not getting off their behinds. But then when the jedi return and tells him that the situation is much worse than he thought then he suddenly becomes very weak and will not do anything.
His name implies this dichotomy: "Valor" ... "um"(mm). He might be given to waxing and waning. On the other hand, he may have once been strong, and the political bickering may have worn him down. In this context, the name conjures up past glory. Sending the Jedi in secret may have been something he did with great reluctance and with great convincing. "The Chancellor has very little real power . . . " works on multiple levels. And the real Phantom Menace is Palpatine.
ShaneP posted:
Why do the jedi obey Valorum if they serve the senate(i.e. "The Republic") and not any particular chancellor?
Ah! Good question.
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I have a great admiration for George. These films are very well-intentioned. All right, they make tremendous amounts of money and appeal to kids, but they say good things, and they say them in a broad way. I believe in the Star Wars films.
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DARTH-SMELLY-FEET
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
4/8 4:20am
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
- Date Edited:
4/8 4:49am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DARTH-SMELLY-FEET
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ShaneP posted:
Why do the jedi obey Valorum if they serve the senate(i.e. "The Republic") and not any particular chancellor?
Case Closed. Its bad writing.IMO.
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Strilo
Title: PT Manager
aka Dr. John Dorian
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
4/8 8:02am
Subject:
RE: Possible Plot Hole in TPM
- Date Edited:
4/8 8:06am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Strilo
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It's not case closed and it's not bad writing. Perhaps the Jedi take the mission because they are fully aware of the corruption in the Senate and they trust Valorum. After all, at this point the dark side is not clouding everything. Perhaps Lucas was also showing a little bad judgment on the part of the Jedi. After all, he was also showing that the Jedi Order was stagnant and ineffective. Either way, it's good writing.
And really, you need to post more that "w00t it's bad writing" or "no no it's just bad writing" in these discussions. If you cannot contribute in a meaningful way, then please don't post.
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