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Topic:
ROTS: Why did the episode begin "there"?
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
3/22 10:21pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS: Why did the episode begin "there"?
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There are some really cool things in LoE and The Clone Wars shows, but most of it is just as effective as setup or background for the main story.
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G-FETT
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
3/27 9:41am
Subject:
RE: ROTS: Why did the episode begin "there"?
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Well this is what hooks me about ROTS right from the pan. That beautiful shot of the sun glistening on the hull of one of the ships. The silence, followed by the drum beats. Then the Jedi Starfighters flying into the picture and the force theme kicks in to reveal; BATTLE! I honestly think ROTS has the best start of the entire Saga and really, really brings the viewer into the movie stright the way.
I also think Lucas was trying to link the start of Episode III to the start if Episode IV, in that straight from the pan, we're in the action and we actually start to story in the middle of the story.
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I felt a great disturbance in the force. As if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror. Then were suddenly silenced.
The Saga returns; August 15th 2008.
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Hoaxer_Poker
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
3/27 9:55am
Subject:
RE: ROTS: Why did the episode begin "there"?
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I got to admit, I love the beginning of ROTS, even though some of it is a little hard to follow, but that's the point I guess.
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Darth_Davi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
3/27 11:19am
Subject:
RE: ROTS: Why did the episode begin "there"?
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ROTS opening crawl posted:
Episode III
REVENGE OF THE SITH
War! The Republic is crumbling
under attacks by the ruthless
Sith Lord, Count Dooku.
There are heroes on both sides.
Evil is everywhere.
In a stunning move, the
fiendish droid leader, General
Grievous, has swept into the
Republic capital and kidnapped
Chancellor Palpatine, leader of
the Galactic Senate.
As the Separatist Droid Army
attempts to flee the besieged
capital with their valuable
hostage, two Jedi Knights lead a
desperate mission to rescue the
captive Chancellor....
How is it hard to follow, exactly? Everything we need to know is told to us during the text...Republic is losing, new character General Grievous kidnaps Palpatine, they are over Coruscant, two Jedi Knights (obviously Kenobi and Skywalker) are trying to rescue him. It sets up the opening scene just fine. The opening crawl tells us everything we really need to know prior to the beginning of the film. Crawl tells us the who, what, when, where, and why.
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Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide!
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Hoaxer_Poker
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
3/27 1:07pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS: Why did the episode begin "there"?
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I wasn't refering to the story/plot, but more to the massive and fast action that's going on.
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Dark_Jedi_Kenobi
Title: PT Manager
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
3/27 1:36pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS: Why did the episode begin "there"?
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In my opinion, the film started at that exact moment to give the audience a sense of what was going on at that time in the Republic. A portion of the audience had seen the Clone Wars cartoons, but a decent majority had not. So it was important to give the audience a feel for what the war was like.
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***Host of the PT Trivia Challenge Game 12: Question 10 Posted!*** http://boards.theforce.net/prequel_trilogy/b10669/23314477/p4/?184
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FirBholg
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
3/27 3:26pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS: Why did the episode begin "there"?
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DARTH_BELO posted:
I have always wondered this. I don't know about anyone else, but in my opinion, the beginning of the story of ROTS seems like we kind of came in to the middle of something. That is in fact what did happen.
Star Wars films always begin the same way, with a starship seen in space, in the middle of things. That is the reason for the opening crawl - to tell you how things have developed to this point.
Personally, I think ROTS has the strongest opening of any film in the saga, and offers a fairly strong echo to the clone forces we see being deployed at the end of AOTC, showing quite vividly the conflict that has engulfed the Republic.
I have never found this opening too abrupt, and like that we can cut right to the action, only slowing down enough for some necessary exposition after the Chancellor has been rescued, the ship landed, and all that.
No complaints here.
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F.I.G.S.
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Cryogenic
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
3/27 3:51pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS: Why did the episode begin "there"?
- Date Edited:
3/27 3:55pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Cryogenic
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Hmmm. The obvious answer to "why", in my mind, is . . . "why not?" 
The opening shot is a tremendous technical showcase, a great visceral moment and just damn good cinema -- in my opinion. Perhaps it is the latter point that requires elaboration.
What I find edifying about this shot is how it cleverly quotes the opening shot of the chronologically-first film. It has been noted that Lucas has a fascination with circles; a fascination reflected in the dialogue, visual motifs, themes, plotting and making of the saga. Here is yet another example, where the film itself seems to say, "The circle is now (or almost) complete." In the ways in which this shot differs from the opening shot of ANH, it lends ROTS a subversive streak, intelligently contextualising its depiction of war / moral decline. How so? Well, in the original movie, a corpse-coloured Star Destroyer is mercilessly pursuing its tiny Rebel prey; in ROTS, a direct ancestor of the Star Destroyer is sitting in orbit around the political and narrative centre of the "Republic" trilogy, which gives the viewer (or the thinking viewer) the uncanny implication that war has come home to roost; that these characters have dramatically screwed it up somehow; that another conflict is just around the corner. Notice I said "corpse-coloured"; the iconic Star Destroyer is a death grey, while its predecessor still bears the hue of the Republic. The shot also has a "setting sun". Scientifically, this is meaningless -- a sun doesn't set in space. But the way it superficially appears is as a setting sun, implying that the Republic is on the wane; a point symbolically reinforced with both the presence of this proto-Star Destroyer and its remaining red decal. Of course, the war drums echoing across the juggernaut's visage, and the militarised "Force Theme" that supplants it, perfectly complement the stridency of the composition.
Ridiculously (or not), this point can be taken even further. I see that someone has observed that the shot functions as an operatic continuation of one of the final images in AOTC, as Palpatine and various officials of the Republic watch the organs of war rising from Coruscant in AOTC. It's as if these beasts were colony ships, about to bring "war" to all corners of the galaxy. How ironic, then, to see one of these things in orbit of the same planet that its brethren were leaving at the end of the last episode -- the farce of the Clone Wars is told visually with this contrast, I think. Ultimately, Palpatine / Sidious has orchestrated the war to consolidate power, and this link reveals the "full circle" nature of the false conflict. The war was never going to go anywhere but home, right over the capital of the galaxy, directly over the heads of the seeing but non-believing Jedi, all for the benefit of one man.
Out of these features emerges a satisfying inevitability. Before experiencing this shot for the first time, I had no idea what to expect and it blew me away. But looking back -- in fact, even watching as the shot unfolded in real time -- it just felt "right", like this was the only way that ROTS could start. Assured, artful filmmaking at its finest.
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I have a great admiration for George. These films are very well-intentioned. All right, they make tremendous amounts of money and appeal to kids, but they say good things, and they say them in a broad way. I believe in the Star Wars films.
- Ian McDiarmid
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Obi-Chron
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
3/27 5:39pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS: Why did the episode begin "there"?
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From the scroll, I found it preposterous that Dooku could penetrate the Coruscant system and kidnap the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic, Palpatine. When the space battle unfolded, I was even more incredulous. How in the maker's name did such a huge fleet "sweep" into the Republic capital system without warning? What were the Jedi and the rest of the Republic's forces doing to allow such an incredibly incompetent move?
True, Lucas pulled of a visually and musically choreographed CG masterpiece with the battle, but the premise of the engagement was not in any way practical. Having Grievous appear as a wheezing mecho-chicken added to my growing disdain.
I found ROTS nothing more than fluff until Anakin kills Dooku, and then more fluff until the space opera scene. From that point on the movie transcends the entire PT saga that transpired before it.
For me, it was the last half of ROTS that hit the nail on the head. The techno-fluff in the first half left me totally unimpressed plot wise. As far as advancing the art of digital photography and CG effects, Lucas created a masterpiece. But the story was hollow until Anakin sits with Palpatine and gets taken to Sith school.
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“It is by going down into the abyss that we recover the treasures of life. Where you stumble, there lies your treasure.”
~ Joseph Campbell
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Cryogenic
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
3/27 6:04pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS: Why did the episode begin "there"?
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Obi-Chron posted:
From the scroll, I found it preposterous that Dooku could penetrate the Coruscant system and kidnap the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic, Palpatine. When the space battle unfolded, I was even more incredulous. How in the maker's name did such a huge fleet "sweep" into the Republic capital system without warning? What were the Jedi and the rest of the Republic's forces doing to allow such an incredibly incompetent move?
Maybe Coruscant wasn't that well protected? Maybe it was a surprise attack? Maybe -- just maybe -- Palpatine had something to do with it?
Obi-Chron posted:
True, Lucas pulled of a visually and musically choreographed CG masterpiece with the battle, but the premise of the engagement was not in any way practical.
I'd say it was practical on multiple levels. The war scenario was exploited for multiple gains -- by Palpatine and Lucas combined.
Obi-Chron posted:
Having Grievous appear as a wheezing mecho-chicken added to my growing disdain.
Well, this is a left-field comment. Film aesthetics is an inherently different thing. Suffice it to say, I had the opposite reaction.
Obi-Chron posted:
I found ROTS nothing more than fluff until Anakin kills Dooku, and then more fluff until the space opera scene. From that point on the movie transcends the entire PT saga that transpired before it.
For me, it was the last half of ROTS that hit the nail on the head. The techno-fluff in the first half left me totally unimpressed plot wise. As far as advancing the art of digital photography and CG effects, Lucas created a masterpiece. But the story was hollow until Anakin sits with Palpatine and gets taken to Sith school.
I think you're being melodramatic here. The first half of ROTS turned so many cogs it's surreal. Everything was cleanly laid out: the camaraderie between Anakin and Obi-Wan, Anakin's next step to the Dark Side, the joys and troubles between Anakin and Padme, Anakin's growing discord with the Jedi Council and Obi-Wan, Anakin's obsession to save Padme, Anakin's growing bond with Palpatine and a whole lot more. I will venture to say that another reason the "opera" scene works so well is because we feel all of these cogs being turned beforehand; we get a greater sense of what Palpatine has worked up to and what state of mind Anakin is in; it's a respite and a revelation for the Anakin character and the audience combined when the latter scene finally kicks in.
Anyway, I suppose I got carried away in commenting upon the opening shot. The opening sequence is masterful, too. It lacks the raw suspense of the battles from the OT, but it makes up for it with great interplay between Anakin and Obi-Wan; in fact, the subdued sense of suspense actually bolsters the idea that these guys are competent Jedi who can more or less make it through every obstacles -- except their own issues. Destroying the shield generator? £10,000. Saving Palpatine? £50,000. Falling to the Dark Side and being left to burn to death by your "brother"? Priceless.
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I have a great admiration for George. These films are very well-intentioned. All right, they make tremendous amounts of money and appeal to kids, but they say good things, and they say them in a broad way. I believe in the Star Wars films.
- Ian McDiarmid
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drg4
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
3/27 6:35pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS: Why did the episode begin "there"?
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Obi-Chron: Is Dooku’s tactical triumph any more preposterous than the climax of ANH, where the Empire sends a mere handful of TIES after an organized band of 30+ fighters who’d gained possession of the Death Star read-out? Or the Rebel transports’ miraculous escape from Hoth? Or a dozen or so frigates holding their own against a fleet of Star Destroyers, the Executor, and an operational Death Star? (How did the Rebels live to see the end of the flick? What, did the Imperial Fleet just up and leave after the DS went boom?) Tarkin’s hubris, ion cannons, and god-knows-what only goes so far in explaining this stuff.
Now sing along with me: Just sus-pen-sion of logic, makes the med-i-cine go down…
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Obi-Chron
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
3/27 7:01pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS: Why did the episode begin "there"?
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Cryogenic posted:
Destroying the shield generator? £10,000. Saving Palpatine? £50,000. Falling to the Dark Side and being left to burn to death by your "brother"? Priceless.
Amen to that! 
The early light hearted interplay between Anakin and Obi-Wan later leaves the viewer rather perplexed when, after Anakin demands on taking Obi-Wan off of the Hand, to Palpatines disdain, his recently rescued "brother" asks him to spy on the Chancellor, violating the laws of the Republic and the Jedi code. So much for gratitude, eh!
But so many other flaws deserve mention. Dooku is eliminated waaaay too early in ROTS, leaving the hacking mecho-chicken as the new transitional evil prop, a blatant revenue generating LucasFilm toy marketing character if ever there was one. Give me a break. The feared GG of the Clone Wars toons is relegated to a RonCo-esque Ginzu-matic cinematic prop. So sad. But he must do until Lord Sidious struts his stuff in the final acts.
And the vaunted son of midichlorians cannot even discern that his preggers wife is carrying twins while the Jedi council doesn't sense Padme's delicate condition. The force is certainly not with the Jedi masters when it comes to paternity issues, is it? Maybe Luke and Leia were just playing hide-and-seek?
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skgai1
Registered:
Nov '05
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Date Posted:
3/27 8:56pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS: Why did the episode begin "there"?
- Date Edited:
3/27 8:57pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
skgai1
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Obi-Cron posted:
But so many other flaws deserve mention. Dooku is eliminated waaaay too early in ROTS, leaving the hacking mecho-chicken as the new transitional evil prop, a blatant revenue generating LucasFilm toy marketing character if ever there was one. Give me a break. The feared GG of the Clone Wars toons is relegated to a RonCo-esque Ginzu-matic cinematic prop. So sad. But he must do until Lord Sidious struts his stuff in the final acts.
And the vaunted son of midichlorians cannot even discern that his preggers wife is carrying twins while the Jedi council doesn't sense Padme's delicate condition. The force is certainly not with the Jedi masters when it comes to paternity issues, is it? Maybe Luke and Leia were just playing hide-and-seek?
I'd have to agree that I thought Dooku's death came to soon when I first saw. Even now I wish that the lighsaber battle would have had a little more to it. But I also love the fact that Star Wars films just go, go go! Let's get you right down in action and let's get this story started. But the editing really takes the times when Anakin is thinking about beheading Dooku. The pace for those seconds really captures the scene perfectly and let's me forget any minor quarrel I had with the previous timing. Also, the muted sound after Dooku dies gives the film the pause it needs for getting back into the action.
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FirBholg
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/4 2:38pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS: Why did the episode begin "there"?
- Date Edited:
4/4 2:44pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
FirBholg
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Dooku needs to be eliminated early in the first act. There is a lot of ground to cover in ROTS, and this establishes several important things in a dramatic manner right off the bat:
From Sidious' point of view, anyone who now knows that Chancellor Palpatine = Darth Sidious is a liability. The war has served its purpose, and Darth Tyranus with it. It is time to eliminate him.
This gives us a chance to see how much Anakin has improved in skill since the conclusion of the previous film, by allowing him to best Dooku, alone. At the same time, visually, it resonates with the final duel of the saga.
Palpatine tests the boundaries of Anakin's will, by commanding him to kill Dooku (which he does), and to abandon Obi-Wan (which he does not do). This shows us that while Palpatine has influence over Anakin's better judgement, Anakin is still operating within the parameters of his Jedi training.
I too would have loved to have seen more of Darth Tyrannus as the overt and operative Sith Lord, especially with a golden performer like Christopher Lee in the role. But ultimately, it would have detracted from the tight focus on Anakin and Palpatine, where it needs to be for ROTS to work.
General Grievous is a poor substitute of an antagonist. He isn't intended to be able to take Dooku's place in the Separatist faction - he is intended to do just what he does, tie up the Jedi in chasing him down to distract attention from Palpatine's role.
By the time Grievous is eliminated, Palpatine no longer needs him. He is ready to be revealed, and enact his grand revenge - the betrayal of the Jedi by their most gifted pupil. Grievous' filler role in the film is precisely analagous to his place in Palpatine's scheme - showy, distracting and, ultimately, disposeable.
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F.I.G.S.
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JEDIGUNSHIP
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
5/20 9:42pm
Subject:
RE: ROTS: Why did the episode begin "there"?
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The reason that it came in the middle of the battle was
1. It was covered in the Clone Wars microseries
2. Starting off the movie with a bang, something to get the viewers excited.
How could a simple scene of Palpatine getting captured be as interesting as a fight scene to start off? It's just not logical.
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