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Topic:
Why didnt Mace Windu contact the Senate and tell them that Palpatine was a Sith Lord?
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Darthbane2007
Registered:
Oct '07
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Date Posted:
4/20 11:54am
Subject:
RE: Why didnt Mace Windu contact the Senate and tell them that Palpatine was a Sith Lord?
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PMT99 posted:
They have Obi-wan and the Seperatists Leaders as witnesses.
The Seperatists have seen and known who Darth Sidious is and Obi-wan was told by Dooku about Darth Sidious controlling the Republic. Add that with Anakin's testimony and they'll have Palpatine thrown in jail.
Well, for one, I don't think the seperatists knew that Palpatine and Darth Sidious were one in the same. Obi-Wan didn't know either; He thought that Dooku was lying about the whole thing. And besides, even if they had Anakin's testimony, Palpatine could go and say " Anakin clearly has been worn out with this war" or something to the effect. Palpatine has been very careful to cover his tracks to the point that if the Jedi were to arrest and accuse him, they couldn't pinpoint any evidence on him and say that he is Darth Sidious and has been controlling the war from both sides.
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Darthbane2007
Registered:
Oct '07
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Date Posted:
8/19 11:41am
Subject:
RE: Why didnt Mace Windu contact the Senate and tell them that Palpatine was a Sith Lord?
- Date Edited:
8/19 11:52am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darthbane2007
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I don't think the majority of the senate, minus the delegation of 2000, didn't trust the jedi too much by ROTS.
Besides, Palpatine had them locked around his little pinky finger. To them, he's the savior to the republic, a man who fought to keep the seperatists out of the republic and did what he could to end the war as quickly as possible. He's the guy that to them, like to sip tea and relax, and always able to lend friendly advice to anyone who needs it.
And besides, even if Mace was to say " Yo Mas Ammedda, Palps is the sith lord we've been looking for" What evidence do he or the other Jedi have to arrest him? Remember, the only evidence that Mace has that he is a sith is the words of a emotionally wrecked Anakin Skywalker, and in the condition that he is in, I don't think Anakin would be a reliable witness. And if you listen to the exchange between the 4 muskeeters and Palpatine in his office, Palpatine says things on the lines of " You can't arrest me. There's no proof!" and " Even if I am a sith, there is no law prohibiting my religious beliefs!" They have no LEGAL grounds to arrest him anyway.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
8/19 4:08pm
Subject:
RE: Why didnt Mace Windu contact the Senate and tell them that Palpatine was a Sith Lord?
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The Jedi did have legal ground to arrest him. Palpatine had exceeded his term limit and the crisis was over, so it was time for him to lay down his emergency powers. If he didn't, he needed to be removed by force. Once Palpatine drew his saber, the Jedi's legal standing was only increased as it proved he was a Sith and given the rule of two, he could only be Darth Sidious. This means that in addition to violating his term limits he is guilty of taking part in a conspiracy to destroy the Republic, conspiracy to commit murder, and crimes against the peace.
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Obi-Chron
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
8/19 5:23pm
Subject:
RE: Why didnt Mace Windu contact the Senate and tell them that Palpatine was a Sith Lord?
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Palpatine had corrupted the Jedi every bit as much as he had the Senate . . . he led them down the slippery path to self-destruction, and they followed all to willingly.
Palps forced the Jedi to abandon the rule of law they were sworn to uphold, to violate the constitution, and to arrest the Chancellor without a legal Senatorial warrant. The law clearly stated that only the Senate could order Palpatine's arrest. Only the Senate could impeach him and remove him from power.
Palps manipulated the Jedi through Anakin into confronting him with the threat of violence, the last resort of the Jedi. It was quite provocative for four Jedi to draw their light sabers on a visibly unarmed and alone elected leader of the Republic, in the dead of night, a leader who in-turn was forced to defend himself. Why who knew what those crazy Jedi might do if he just sat there? They were trying to take over the Republic, launching a traitorous coup de tat. They might kill him!
Of course we, the audience, know that the Sith Lord was evil, that he manipulated galactic events to precipitate the Clone War. But the Jedi actually followed the Chancellor/Sith's orders, never suspecting him of his evil deeds. And they acted to arrest him based on the word of one man, Anakin Skywalker, a Jedi who Mace Windu openly distrusted.
Why did this happen? How could the Jedi act so foolishly? They permitted, over many years, the Sith to weaken their powers, to lull them into a collective sleep walk. The order passively accepted more and more corruption throughout the galaxy without pressing the Senate to reel in the rising chaos or consulting the force to discern who or what was behind the surge in disorder.
So arrogant were they that the once vaunted Jedi refused to believe Qui-Gon Jinn when he announced that he was attacked by a Sith on Tatooine. They felt confident -- too confident that Sith were long gone, never to return. Yet in a few short years after Jinn's death, the order obeyed the orders of a Sith Lord sitting in the Galaxy's highest elected office.
The Jedi failed the Republic. They failed their most fundamental, time honored principles. They were, alas, oh so slowly corrupted over many years by wise and wiley Sith opponents who knew the Jedi better than they knew themselves.
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“It is by going down into the abyss that we recover the treasures of life. Where you stumble, there lies your treasure.”
~ Joseph Campbell
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DarthDuckie
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
8/19 5:59pm
Subject:
RE: Why didnt Mace Windu contact the Senate and tell them that Palpatine was a Sith Lord?
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Quite.
Sidious's greatest strength was his ability to identify others' fatal weaknesses and exploit them mercilessly to the point where he could manipulate them with consummate ease or else dispose of them. In the case of Anakin, it was his attachments to certain people, Dooku his ideological fundamentalism, the Senate, fear, and the Jedi, arrogance, dogmatism and complacency.
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Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand.
-Bodie Theone
A hero is a person who understands the responsibility
that comes with his freedom.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
8/19 6:27pm
Subject:
RE: Why didnt Mace Windu contact the Senate and tell them that Palpatine was a Sith Lord?
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Obi-Chron posted:
Palpatine had corrupted the Jedi every bit as much as he had the Senate . . . he led them down the slippery path to self-destruction, and they followed all to willingly.
Palps forced the Jedi to abandon the rule of law they were sworn to uphold, to violate the constitution, and to arrest the Chancellor without a legal Senatorial warrant. The law clearly stated that only the Senate could order Palpatine's arrest. Only the Senate could impeach him and remove him from power.
Two points, first what's your source on the law? Secondly, "In the name of the Galactic Senate of the Republic, you are under arrest Chancellor." The Jedi's legal authority came from the Senate.
Obi-Chron posted:
Palps manipulated the Jedi through Anakin into confronting him with the threat of violence, the last resort of the Jedi. It was quite provocative for four Jedi to draw their light sabers on a visibly unarmed and alone elected leader of the Republic, in the dead of night, a leader who in-turn was forced to defend himself. Why who knew what those crazy Jedi might do if he just sat there? They were trying to take over the Republic, launching a traitorous coup de tat. They might kill him!
The Jedi hadn't launched a coup at that point. They were simply arresting him for violating the constitution by staying in office long past his term limits. There wouldn't have been a fight if Palpatine had simply been willing to go peacefully(assuming he hadn't done anything else to indicate that he was a Sith Lord.)
Obi-Chron posted:
Of course we, the audience, know that the Sith Lord was evil, that he manipulated galactic events to precipitate the Clone War. But the Jedi actually followed the Chancellor/Sith's orders, never suspecting him of his evil deeds. And they acted to arrest him based on the word of one man, Anakin Skywalker, a Jedi who Mace Windu openly distrusted.
Why did this happen? How could the Jedi act so foolishly? They permitted, over many years, the Sith to weaken their powers, to lull them into a collective sleep walk. The order passively accepted more and more corruption throughout the galaxy without pressing the Senate to reel in the rising chaos or consulting the force to discern who or what was behind the surge in disorder.
Palpatine never did anything which would indicate that he was evil in the presence of the Jedi. They had no reason to believe he was evil until the Clone Wars as he began to gather more and more power to himself, and by that time they had the more immediate threat of Count Dooku and the Separatists to deal with. They also didn't arrest him simply on the word of Anakin Skywalker. The Jedi were already on their way to arrest Palpatine for violating the Republic's constitution before Anakin confessed to Mace in the hangar. That was simply one more thing to be wary about.
Obi-Chron posted:
So arrogant were they that the once vaunted Jedi refused to believe Qui-Gon Jinn when he announced that he was attacked by a Sith on Tatooine. They felt confident -- too confident that Sith were long gone, never to return. Yet in a few short years after Jinn's death, the order obeyed the orders of a Sith Lord sitting in the Galaxy's highest elected office.
But they didn't all feel so sure. Mace and Ki-Adi did, but Yoda warned them that the Dark Side is difficult to see and was far more receptive of Qui-Gon's warning. You're completely ignoring the fact that the Council wasn't a monolithic entity.
There's also no reason for them to assume that the Sith are playing both sides, because Palaptine has done nothing to indicate that he's a Sith, merely that he's a politician. Maul's attack in no way indicates that then Senator Palpatine is also a Sith Lord.
Obi-Chron posted:
The Jedi failed the Republic. They failed their most fundamental, time honored principles. They were, alas, oh so slowly corrupted over many years by wise and wiley Sith opponents who knew the Jedi better than they knew themselves.
The Jedi and a few heroic Senators like Bail Organa were the only thing keeping the Republic afloat in it's twilight. They were simply unable to see the forest through the trees and never expected the Sith to turn the Republic against them. I've yet to see any moral failure on their part despite the constant accusation of corruption.
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"The ways of the Living Force are beyond our understanding... But fear not. You are in the hands of something much greater and much better than you can imagine." - Qui-Gon Jinn
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DarthDuckie
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
8/19 6:38pm
Subject:
RE: Why didnt Mace Windu contact the Senate and tell them that Palpatine was a Sith Lord?
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They served a corrupt body in the Senate. They were prepared to take the title of military General and be leaders in a corrupt war, despite claiming not to be soldiers and to only use their powers for defence. Some would argue that their ignorance and arrogance caused them to become corrupt be association.
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Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand.
-Bodie Theone
A hero is a person who understands the responsibility
that comes with his freedom.
- Bob Dylan
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
8/19 7:29pm
Subject:
RE: Why didnt Mace Windu contact the Senate and tell them that Palpatine was a Sith Lord?
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This whole part seemed like a big plot hole. They find the super sneaky Sith Lord and take 3 Jedi Masters to defeat him? Blah. They should have swarmed him with all of the Jedi Masters, knights and Padawans at the Temple. They definitely should have taken Anakin and mostly - they should have done the right thing and captured rather than killed him. With that many Jedi they would not have had a problem doing so. But then we would have no Darth Vader and that would be catastrophic!
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
8/20 4:54pm
Subject:
RE: Why didnt Mace Windu contact the Senate and tell them that Palpatine was a Sith Lord?
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DarthDuckie posted:
They served a corrupt body in the Senate. They were prepared to take the title of military General and be leaders in a corrupt war, despite claiming not to be soldiers and to only use their powers for defence. Some would argue that their ignorance and arrogance caused them to become corrupt be association.
Now that argument I can see. I come to a different conclusion(that the Jedi were simply ignorant without the moral judgment inherent in "corrupt) but, I can see how someone would come to the other conclusion.
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"The ways of the Living Force are beyond our understanding... But fear not. You are in the hands of something much greater and much better than you can imagine." - Qui-Gon Jinn
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Obi-Chron
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
8/20 6:52pm
Subject:
RE: Why didnt Mace Windu contact the Senate and tell them that Palpatine was a Sith Lord?
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^^^
That 'someone' was Lucas himself on the 'E! Behind the scene - Revenge of the Sith' special back in 05, where he said (paraphrasing):
"The Jedi were the peacemakers of the galaxy, not warriors. At the time of TPM they more or less had been galactic ambassadors, convincing others to abide by the decisions of the Republic. By taking on the role of general-warrior during the Clone Wars they quickly fell away from their traditional role in the galaxy and, as a result, became corrupted, becoming something they were not meant to be."
Obi-Wan asking Anakin to spy on Palpatine in confidence outside of the council chamber is played as an example to drive home Lucas' point.
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“It is by going down into the abyss that we recover the treasures of life. Where you stumble, there lies your treasure.”
~ Joseph Campbell
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
8/20 7:34pm
Subject:
RE: Why didnt Mace Windu contact the Senate and tell them that Palpatine was a Sith Lord?
- Date Edited:
8/20 7:36pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Starwalker
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Oh, I know Lucas thinks that the Jedi were corrupted, I just don't think his argument is consistent with the movies and thus pay it little mind. I don't see anything wrong with what Obi-Wan was asking Anakin to do. He did it off the record because Palpatine would learn about it if they hadn't. The Chancellor had exceeded his authority and his term limits so the Jedi had good reason to be suspicious.
His point that the Jedi aren't "warriors" is also completely nonsensical given that they're called Jedi Knights and Luke serves as a warrior throughout the Original Trilogy, yet Lucas has said that he considers Luke to be a heroic character.
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"The ways of the Living Force are beyond our understanding... But fear not. You are in the hands of something much greater and much better than you can imagine." - Qui-Gon Jinn
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DRush76
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
8/21 2:21pm
Subject:
RE: Why didnt Mace Windu contact the Senate and tell them that Palpatine was a Sith Lord?
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Why doesnt Mace Windu and his jedi possee get on a holographic comlink or something and contact the Galactic Senate with the news of Palpatine really being Darth Sidious?
Why didn't Yoda and Obi-Wan contact the Galactic Senate with the news of Palpatine being Darth Sidious and Anakin being Vader?
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GrandAdmiral_Frank
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
8/21 2:35pm
Subject:
RE: Why didnt Mace Windu contact the Senate and tell them that Palpatine was a Sith Lord?
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You have to realize that it was too late to really do anything. I think that if they had either killed him or somehow gone Anakin's way and got him to go to trial then it might have worked. What could Yoda do? He was in Kashyyk and by the time he would have found out Palpatine would have already had the Jedi made out to be plotters to overthrow the Republic. He really ruled the Senate and all the courts. If they had killed him successfully then maybe they could have rallied all the senators who were apart of the Two Thousand to back them.
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Darthbane2007
Registered:
Oct '07
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Date Posted:
8/21 2:37pm
Subject:
RE: Why didnt Mace Windu contact the Senate and tell them that Palpatine was a Sith Lord?
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DRush76 posted:
Why doesnt Mace Windu and his jedi possee get on a holographic comlink or something and contact the Galactic Senate with the news of Palpatine really being Darth Sidious?
Why didn't Yoda and Obi-Wan contact the Galactic Senate with the news of Palpatine being Darth Sidious and Anakin being Vader?
I don't think that would have worked too well.
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MasterLuke-83
Registered:
Oct '08
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Date Posted:
10/12 12:50pm
Subject:
RE: Why didnt Mace Windu contact the Senate and tell them that Palpatine was a Sith Lord?
- Date Edited:
10/12 12:51pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
MasterLuke-83
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This might have been said before, but the rest of the universe doesnt care what cult someones in. Only the Jedi kept track of those things. We must remember this is really an underground struggle whereas the average populace isnt even aware of.
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