| Author |
Topic:
Prequel Trilogy deeper than Classic?
|
BaronLandoCalrissian
Registered:
Jun '06
|
Date Posted:
4/8 11:20am
Subject:
RE: Prequel Trilogy deeper than Classic?
|
Killing Vader at THAT point- disarmed, beaten and helpless, would be purely for revenge and pleasure. In our world or theirs, that is something that is tough to come back from.
(also I don't think the end of Empire is quite that bleak. The final scene is quite hopeful to me, and Kershner took great pains to make it so, even more than it was on paper.)
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
DarthDuckie
Registered:
Jan '04
|
Date Posted:
4/8 4:38pm
Subject:
RE: Prequel Trilogy deeper than Classic?
|
|
Although it's not as obviously portrayed as in Anakin's case, I think Luke's journey to the brink of the dark side was gradual and cumulative. he has a lot of anger in him about the situation with Vader and the fact that Obiwan and Yoda lied to him for so long. There's confusion, fear and frustration in him and we see it surface from time to time. These factors were what made Obiwan and Yoda fear the outcome of his confrontation with Vader and the Emperor. They knew it would lead to a climax of these feelings. The unknown was whether he would conquer them at that point and find a degree of closure or give into them and be seduced by the dark side and the power it could provide him with. That was essentially Anakin's reasoning - the dark side can give me the power to put everything right. The light can't.
-----signature-----
Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand.
-Bodie Theone
A hero is a person who understands the responsibility
that comes with his freedom.
- Bob Dylan
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
skgai1
Registered:
Nov '05
|
Date Posted:
4/9 3:05pm
Subject:
RE: Prequel Trilogy deeper than Classic?
|
drg4 posted:
Well, the parameters set by Lucas dictates that the strike is misguided; but I’d aver the boy is entirely in the right. His opponent, after all, is a mass murderer, enslaver, and torturer who’s declaring his intentions to defile Leia. (The rape subtext is mighty heavy, here.) Had I been in Luke’s position, I’d of decapitated Vader, given Palpatine the middle finger, and moseyed on off to the nearest shuttle. The Death Star explosion would look awfully pretty from that vantage.
If this comes across as a bit strong, understand that I share David Brin’s antipathy toward the idea of Vader/Anakin being redeemed. As far as I’m concerned, the Dark Lord of the Sadists should’ve went out like Macbeth, or found himself the butt of a Miltonic black joke.
O.K. I agree with interpretation of the story. However, I think the story was right, just cause someone deserves death doesn't mean you should give it to them. I'm in line with Lucas here and Tolkein, quoting from the movies now "Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them Frodo." I think the point here is that since you only have power to destory and not to give life, then you can't be hasty in dealing out your judgement. Luke is clearly hasty as only a few words were spoken by Vader. Earlier in the hallway back on Endor, Luke felt that Vader still had good in him. Regardless of what he had done he knew he could still turn him. Therefore, killing him wouldn't have solved anything and would have wasted an opportunity for an old man to be redeemed.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
drg4
Registered:
Jul '05
|
Date Posted:
4/9 6:24pm
Subject:
RE: Prequel Trilogy deeper than Classic?
|
skgai1: Yes, this was certainly Lucas’s aim—-I just can’t abide it. Having been exposed to alternative history at a young age, I have a predisposition for identifying with victims rather than their lionized conquerors. On Columbus Day, I think only of the Arawaks; upon hearing of General Westmoreland’s death, I reflexively searched for that famous photo of the napalmed Vietnamese girl. They’re the Alderaanians, in a certain sense, and so my sympathy lies with them. The Darth Vaders of the world can rot in Hell; I’m not at all interested in their deathbed conversions. There’s even a part of me that resents Lucas for demanding that I place some investment.
For what it’s worth, I might have been able to buy Vader’s redemption, had he been cast as a penitent rather than as his Master’s golem. And it’s not enough that he saved Luke—-everyone loves his child, after all. Better that he stopped Jerjerrod(?) from destroying Endor, or something along those lines. Something truly selfless.
My apologies to everyone if I've digressed too far from my original intent, which was comparing the PT/OT temptations.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
|
Date Posted:
4/10 7:55pm
Subject:
RE: Prequel Trilogy deeper than Classic?
|
|
What I resent is not Vader's redemption, but the myriad other redemptions churned out by the EU about every five minutes or so. Making Yoda into a liar. Well, at least they're EU.
-----signature-----
The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
skgai1
Registered:
Nov '05
|
Date Posted:
4/10 8:24pm
Subject:
RE: Prequel Trilogy deeper than Classic?
|
drg4 posted:
skgai1: Yes, this was certainly Lucas’s aim—-I just can’t abide it. Having been exposed to alternative history at a young age, I have a predisposition for identifying with victims rather than their lionized conquerors. On Columbus Day, I think only of the Arawaks; upon hearing of General Westmoreland’s death, I reflexively searched for that famous photo of the napalmed Vietnamese girl. They’re the Alderaanians, in a certain sense, and so my sympathy lies with them. The Darth Vaders of the world can rot in Hell; I’m not at all interested in their deathbed conversions. There’s even a part of me that resents Lucas for demanding that I place some investment.
For what it’s worth, I might have been able to buy Vader’s redemption, had he been cast as a penitent rather than as his Master’s golem. And it’s not enough that he saved Luke—-everyone loves his child, after all. Better that he stopped Jerjerrod(?) from destroying Endor, or something along those lines. Something truly selfless.
My apologies to everyone if I've digressed too far from my original intent, which was comparing the PT/OT temptations.
Sorry to continue this, but this was certainly a point of these movies. Everyone has good in them and everyone has bad in them. Both the good and the bad are only a point of view so what makes your point of view better than someone else's? Why does your opinion justify in killing other people. That's exactly what Anakin came to believe that he was right. He believe the Jedi were trying to take of the Senate and was only stopping them. Luacs says (paraprasing), "No who's evil actually thinks they're evil." I know I've done bad things and at the time I thought they were the right things, but only after time was I able to see the true way. Only through forgiveness was I able to do the good. If you don't have forgiveness and compassion even for the most vile, society will never work. Anyways that's my two cents and these movies I believe. But feel free to think as you wish. I don't anticiapte you going on a killing rampage like Anakin. 
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
|
Date Posted:
4/10 8:34pm
Subject:
RE: Prequel Trilogy deeper than Classic?
|
|
The thing about Vader's redemption in the OT is that it was never about Vader--it was about Luke. It wasn't that genocidal Vader saw the light and made a death bed repentence--because that can never work, morally speaking--but that Luke finally got through to his father. Vader being redeemed is a personal goal for Luke, its sort of the culmination of his journey as a Jedi that he is finally able to make peace with his father, which is why the whole spirit scene at the end of ROTJ works in terms of the OT but becomes questionable in the Saga. The whole spirit scene is just Luke's father appearing to him to sort of say "thanks", wink at the camera, and then the end credits roll, its really not that big a deal its just a personal accomplishment that Luke made amends. The Saga of course changes everything and totally re-aligns the focus, and with Hayden in there rewarding Anakin with eternal youth the spirit scene has a much different context that I don't think really works, because the redemption was never meant to be framed in terms of Anakin's story, it was framed in terms of Luke's story, and that the only way it makes any sense. I mean its a nice subplot that even the coldest monsters have soft hearts underneath the armor, but once you really put focus on this as the climax of all six films its not really the same. As Lucas says [to paraphrase], "I don't see how you can redeem Vader".
-----signature-----
I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
|
Date Posted:
4/10 8:36pm
Subject:
RE: Prequel Trilogy deeper than Classic?
- Date Edited:
4/10 8:37pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
|
with Hayden in there rewarding Anakin with eternal youth
Uh... what does "eternal youth" mean to a Force ghost? How is it any kind of "reward"? 
-----signature-----
The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
|
Date Posted:
4/10 8:52pm
Subject:
RE: Prequel Trilogy deeper than Classic?
|
Arawn_Fenn posted:
with Hayden in there rewarding Anakin with eternal youth
Uh... what does "eternal youth" mean to a Force ghost? How is it any kind of "reward"?
Because looking youthful is generally viewed as a reward. That pretty much a universal notion. Yoda and Obi Wan are old men but Anakin gets to look like his young, super-model self.
(I know Lucas tried to justify in that "he looks like he did before he was evil", but since that was what he looked like when he turned and was evil that doesn't really hold up.)
-----signature-----
I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
drg4
Registered:
Jul '05
|
Date Posted:
4/10 11:40pm
Subject:
RE: Prequel Trilogy deeper than Classic?
- Date Edited:
4/10 11:58pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
drg4
|
zombie: The connotation is the same, whether the stand-in be Shaw or Christensen. If it was really just about Luke, then the funeral pyre scene was itself a sufficient capper. There was no need for us to see the ghost of a recently reformed mass-murderer smiling blissfully. Doesn't exactly give me the warm n' fuzzies.
Anyway, I have a query more in keeping with the thread subject...
I noted before that, if nothing else, the PT struck me as the deeper story because of its construal of war--that is, an enterprise cynically engineered by politicos and corporatists, to the sole benefit of politicos and corporatists. Quite a departure from the swashbuckling feel-good heroism of the OT. Why did Lucas take such a different route?
Certainly, as a student of history, he may have simply incorporated the dissolution patterns into his own story. But then, there's all those nifty little references to Reagan, Gingrich, and Lott, and I remember that Lucas is a long-standing liberal. One of the interesting ironies about the OT is not only that it's partly credited for allaying America's "Vietnam Syndrome", but that the right-wing ascendancy would end up adopting the iconography and language--e.g., "The Evil Empire," the "Star Wars" missile defense system. This couldn't have sat well with Lucas. Is it daffy to think that the heavy pall of the Right could, in any way, account for the tonal incongruity between the two trilogies? That the PT, with all its obtuse elites and corrupt moguls, is itself a reaction to the reactionaries?
I just see a sadder, more reflective artist at the helm here.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
|
Date Posted:
4/11 7:50am
Subject:
RE: Prequel Trilogy deeper than Classic?
|
drg4 posted:
zombie: The connotation is the same, whether the stand-in be Shaw or Christensen. If it was really just about Luke, then the funeral pyre scene was itself a sufficient capper. There was no need for us to see the ghost of a recently reformed mass-murderer smiling blissfully. Doesn't exactly give me the warm n' fuzzies.
Its totally different when its just about Luke because then its just his dad popping in to say "thanks", theres not much meaning invested in it. Theres no Force ghost issue, as far as we know whenever a Jedi dies they simply become a ghost. Not to mention--Luke is the only one that can see any of them. Its purely a Luke-centric emotional capper that father and son finally acknowledge each other.
-----signature-----
I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
drg4
Registered:
Jul '05
|
Date Posted:
4/11 9:16am
Subject:
RE: Prequel Trilogy deeper than Classic?
- Date Edited:
4/11 9:25am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
drg4
|
Transfiguration is transfiguration, anyway you cut it. Unless Shaw was tethered to spectral chains a la Marley, the image we're left with points to redemption. I find this insufferably sentimental. What's wrong with leaving Anakin's fate open to question? Isn't it enough that Luke said his farewells at the funeral?
A little ambiguity never hurt anyone.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
|
Date Posted:
4/11 10:10am
Subject:
RE: Prequel Trilogy deeper than Classic?
|
|
Your missing the point. The emphasis is different.
-----signature-----
I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
|
Date Posted:
4/11 3:48pm
Subject:
RE: Prequel Trilogy deeper than Classic?
|
zombie posted:
Arawn_Fenn posted:
with Hayden in there rewarding Anakin with eternal youth
Uh... what does "eternal youth" mean to a Force ghost? How is it any kind of "reward"?
Because looking youthful is generally viewed as a reward. That pretty much a universal notion.
Are you serious? 
-----signature-----
The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
T-R-
Registered:
Aug '03
|
Date Posted:
4/11 4:21pm
Subject:
RE: Prequel Trilogy deeper than Classic?
- Date Edited:
4/11 4:22pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
T-R-
|
There are something though that the PT does that the OT dose not. A few examples are:
Showing that someone who is evil dose not always start out that way.
Showing that Something that seems good can turn out to really be bad.
Those are just a few things I can come up with off the top of my head.
True, but the OT examples are:
Showing that someone who is evil dose not always have to stay that way.
Showing that forgiveness can save a soul - both yours and theirs
Not to mention--Luke is the only one that can see any of them. Its purely a Luke-centric emotional capper that father and son finally acknowledge each other.
This is usually overlooked. Luke is the only one to see the ghosts, it's his reward/gift/closure for holding true to his ideals and completing his journey. Even Anakin's death is about Luke. He saves Luke physically while Luke saves him spiritually, thus proving Luke right. That's pretty deep.
As far as Hayden vs. Shaw, the younger self goes against what Lucas said about Anakin looking as he did when he was still good because when Vader kills the Emperor he's essentially Anakin again and thus good, whereas his last acts as a young man are very evil. Completely ignorant change that detracts from the ending of the story.
-----signature-----
Anakin Skywalker: Chosen One
Luke Skywalker: Son of the Suns
Two Prophecies
Two Destinies
ONE SAGA
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
