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Topic:
How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
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JMaster Luke
Registered:
May '00
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Date Posted:
4/13 8:04pm
Subject:
How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
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One thing about that PT that kinda sucks is that Yoda doesn't seem as wise as he was in the OT. In the PT Yoda talks about the Jedi being over confident and to sure of themselves, but since Yoda is the head of the Jedi council, why doesn't he make any changes?
Because Yoda is the head Jedi, and because the Jedi are not at their best state, it kinda makes it look like Yoda is at fault too. If Yoda knows there are problems then fix them.
But I want to bring a really good idea that I once read in these forums awhile back that I think would of been perfect for Yoda.
Imagine if Yoda was not the head of the Jedi council. Actually imagine if Yoda wasn't even on the council. The idea I read talked about Yoda possibly being a Jedi that was working in the Jedi libary. What if Yoda from the Jedi Councils point of view was to old and no longer needed on the council.
Imagine if Yoda worked in the libary and Obi-Wan would be in there in some scenes and Yoda would give him some wise council. Obi-wan could say things like "But the council believes the boy should be trained"
Yoda would say things like "Search your feelings. In the boys future, what do you see?" Maybe through out the trilogy Yoda could always be giving wise council but no one really listens to him because again they consider him past his prime. This would make Obi Wan seem reckless as well not listening to Yoda. "I was once reckless remember" "I thought I could train anakin as well as yoda, well i was wrong"
This would be prefect because when the Jedi are considered to sure of them themselves, this wouldnt include Yoda.
Then when all hope looks to be lost in Episode 3, Yoda takes it upon himself to help his fellow Jedi. This old useless Jedi(from the councils point of view) gives it his all to fight the most powerful dark lord.
In this way Yoda would always come away looking wise, but the council doesn't listen to him. Plus in this way I dont mind the Jedi looking reckless because that wouldn't involve Yoda. Yoda seems beyond that.
This thought needs some tweaking, but i think the idea of Yoda not being on the council, but working somewhere within the temple and giving wise council is a lot better suited for Yoda.
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Luke_Sparkewalker
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
4/14 4:23am
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
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Its good, but in ESB----
Yoda - "...My own council I kept on ones who would be trained!"
would sorta wreak that continuity.
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Blu-Bladed-Jedi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/14 7:14am
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
- Date Edited:
4/14 10:33am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
LemmingLord
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The Jedi, and Yoda, needed to fail. It's why Yoda was more wise in the OT, he learned from his mistakes. Jedi are not perfect and it is not up to Yoda to make sure every jedi has humility that is up to the master.
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Strilo
Title: PT Manager
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
4/14 7:59am
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
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JMaster Luke posted:
Because Yoda is the head Jedi, and because the Jedi are not at their best state, it kinda makes it look like Yoda is at fault too. If Yoda knows there are problems then fix them.
Yoda is at fault. That is the point. We as people are who we are because of all the things we've been through and all the things we've done, right and wrong. Yoda is who he is in TESB because of his life up to that point, including all his mistakes as a Jedi. What Yoda does in the PT and the mistakes he makes enable us as the audience to really see how the events surrounding the fall of the Jedi affect him and how he teaches. It enables Yoda's story arc to feature failure and redemption, thus mirroring Anakin's story. Instead of being so quick to dismiss this as bad writing, take some time to consider why Lucas chose to do things the way he did. I have found that many of them, most of them, have good reasons that enrich the whole.
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halibut
Title: FF Admin & UK RSA
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
4/14 8:11am
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
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I'm happy with Yoda being top dog, but I kinda like the idea of him being the librarian. Or perhaps the Groundskeeper or the barman 
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LemmingLord
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
4/14 10:50am
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
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I was happy with Yoda being less wise in the PT - I sure hope the guy becomces wiser during the twenty years that pass...
Where I was particularly disappointed in Yoda, though, was his lack of helpfulness with Anakin when Anakin shares his dreams with him.. It seems like a guy who had spent 700+ years training jedi would have a clearer understanding of just whatn an emotional wreck Anakin is at that point.. Wisdom isn't merely the understanding of what is the right thing to do but the application of that.. You can't just TELL someone in that state "become unattached." Yes it is a lesson Anakin needed to learn, but Yoda the great teacher should have had a better way to work with Anakin.. Anakin is definitely "special needs" at this point and Yoda just gives him the company line? Where's the wisdom in that?
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Cryogenic
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/14 3:38pm
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
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halibut posted:
I'm happy with Yoda being top dog, but I kinda like the idea of him being the librarian. Or perhaps the Groundskeeper or the barman
Clouded, this boy's cocktail is.
I remember that old thread from a few years back and I vaguely recall my answer. Yoda still has amazing wisdom in the PT -- and he even seems peripherally aware that the time of the Jedi may have come. It's not quite as black and white as has been made out; Yoda is not completely ignorant or a joke. Moreover, the story packs a greater punch if Yoda himself is ultimately part of the Jedi's downfall, and if he takes his share of the blame (as he does in ROTS). Even the wisest of beings can still be wrong, sometimes horribly. I don't want Yoda as a know-it-all and Lucas clearly felt the same. This thread earns one Goober Fish.
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zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
4/14 4:24pm
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
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I think the story was simply set up in such a way that it would be pretty much impossible to have Yoda be the immaculate Dalai Lama of the Jedi and have the bad guys win. In the OT you can get away with it because its not really tangical, its very easy to just "say" these things and have it be floating around as a backstory, but when you have to address it and show it with a specific plot it becomes very difficult. Yoda has to extremely wise, yet Emperor Gargamel has to be able to trick him in the end. Yoda has to be pacifist, yet the Jedi have to be involved in the Clone Wars. Emperor Gargamel has to be the leader of the Republic, yet somehow the Jedi can't suspect him in all the years they've served him. I don't think its as easy as it seems to pull off a story like this without compromising or altering the plot or character somewhere. I agree that the plot and characters could have been done better than they were, but at the same time I also think the way in which Lucas told the story sort of made it inevitable that things would be "tarnished" to some degree.
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voodoopuuduu
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
4/14 8:25pm
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
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Yoda could have worked in the library and still be the one to select the padawans for training, leaving the continuity intact. After all, in the GFFA 12 year old girls are elected to be the supreme ruler of a planet, so it wouldnt be out of line.
But could he be trusted with Madame JoCasta Nu ?  
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SaberSlash
Registered:
Apr '08
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Date Posted:
4/14 9:59pm
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
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Wisdom is obtained by learning and correcting the many mistakes that you learn from in your lifetime.
Ki-Adi Munda pushed the idea of a takeover and Mace seemed to make the decision to remove Palpatine after that discussion. By episode III, Mace seemed to be calling the shots on military/political matters. Yoda did advise that the Council to move with great care in regards to the removal of Palpatine. I think it should be pointed out that Yoda was portrayed as the more cautious voice on the Council but even he overestimated the power of the Jedi. I think it was important that Yoda be show as a bit arrogant to show how he changed after the fall of the Republic to became the wise, cautious sage that Luke learns from later on in the Saga.
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G-FETT
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
4/15 2:58am
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
- Date Edited:
4/15 3:00am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
G-FETT
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The thing is, everyone in the PT fails (well other than Palpatine) Everyone has flaws. The divide between good and bad is blurred. The PT is about failure and the OT is about redemption.
Yoda is no differant to all the other leading characters. He is good, but he is also flawed. He has wisdom, but lacks compassion. He is aware of the Jedi's arrogance, but is unable to stop it.
All these things actually make Yoda's character more interesting, IMO.
But what would really help the audiance understand Yoda's arc, would be if his conversation with Qui-Gon was left in at the end of ROTS. Through that conversation, you understand that Yoda realise's his error's and as he pledges himself to Qui-Gon's teachings, you understand just how much of a journey Yoda takes from where he is in TPM to where he ends up in ESB and ROTJ.
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Kendu_Knight
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
4/15 9:51am
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
- Date Edited:
4/15 9:53am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Kendu_Knight
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I agree with G-FETT entirely.
Yoda in TESB and RotJ was presented as a static character, a helper of Luke's, but in the PT it became necessary for him to become a primary mover (especially by RotS), therefore he, like the other movers, had to change, grow, and learn. And it seems that Lucas set up Qui-Gon to be the vehicle of Yoda's learning.
Qui-Gon is a rebel. He believes in the concept of a living Force, and doesn't believe in the strict following of temple rules/edicts. Yoda is not only on the council, he's the head of it, meaning that he epitomizes that with which Qui-Gon is often at odds, and as seen in TPM, Qui-Gon is the truly wise Jedi.
After Qui-Gon dies, Yoda, as an already great and wise Jedi, is able to learn to communicate with him. He continues this until he quite possibly sees Qui-Gon in Force-ghost form. And over the course of RotS to TESB (the same time-space you've allotted for Yoda's growth in wisdom), we see a change in Yoda's Force-concept.
In RotS, to Anakin:
"...rejoice for those who have transformed into the Force..."
And in TESB, to Luke:
"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."
In the time that Yoda (and Obi-Wan) converses with Qui-Gon's spirit and learns from him, he goes from seeing physical matter transforming into divine being to seeing no difference between physical matter and divine being, a coextensiveness of Force and matter, a living Force.
That's why Yoda is merely reciting scripture to Anakin, IMO. He doesn't yet get it himself.
So Yoda had to change. And the Almighty Qui-Gon Jinn was his teacher. Began with Qui-Gon, didn't get to Anakin, but was passed to Luke, who did succeed.
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
4/15 10:45am
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
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zombie posted:
... its not really tangical... Emperor Gargamel has to be able to trick him... Emperor Gargamel has to be the leader of the Republic....
"Tangical?" Gargamel? Zombie, did you just come back from the dentist? You seem a little woozy.
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
4/15 6:22pm
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
- Date Edited:
4/15 6:25pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
ShaneP
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zombie
In the OT you can get away with it because its not really tangical, its very easy to just "say" these things and have it be floating around as a backstory, but when you have to address it and show it with a specific plot it becomes very difficult
Very good point. It's something I have to remind myself of when I'm so eager to lay into the things I don't like about the PT. It was alot easier when there was an implied or less detailed backstory. But when you actually have to get down to telling it.....good luck to those involved.
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JediCleric
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/16 5:20am
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
- Date Edited:
4/16 5:23am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
JediCleric
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Yoda was very wise in the PT. In fact, Yoda's wisdom has never been in question.
The issue with Yoda was not his wisdom but rather his vision. In the PT, Yoda, although being incredibly wise and powerful, was also completely blind.
In the OT, Yoda finally combined his wisdom with a newfound vision (via QGJ's teachings).
In the end, Yoda was still very much bound by his long engrained limitations (ie, thinking that Luke had to face, fight, and kill Vader and Sidious - instead of accepting the fact that Anakin was/continued to be the chosen one). However through his newfound teachings, Yoda was able to learn enough to see what once he could not and, through that learning, take the next step in his force evolution.
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Loco_for_Lucas
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
4/16 12:20pm
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
- Date Edited:
4/16 12:25pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Loco_for_Lucas
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zombie posted:
I think the story was simply set up in such a way that it would be pretty much impossible to have Yoda be the immaculate Dalai Lama of the Jedi and have the bad guys win. In the OT you can get away with it because its not really tangical, its very easy to just "say" these things and have it be floating around as a backstory, but when you have to address it and show it with a specific plot it becomes very difficult. Yoda has to extremely wise, yet Emperor Gargamel has to be able to trick him in the end. Yoda has to be pacifist, yet the Jedi have to be involved in the Clone Wars. Emperor Gargamel has to be the leader of the Republic, yet somehow the Jedi can't suspect him in all the years they've served him. I don't think its as easy as it seems to pull off a story like this without compromising or altering the plot or character somewhere. I agree that the plot and characters could have been done better than they were, but at the same time I also think the way in which Lucas told the story sort of made it inevitable that things would be "tarnished" to some degree.
I agree; the more I think about it, the best way around this would be to simply not have Yoda in the Prequels at all and have his introduction remain in ESB. The chain reaction that leads to the fall of the Republic is more feasible without the presence of someone who should know better.
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