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Topic:
How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
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zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
4/16 1:07pm
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
- Date Edited:
4/16 2:37pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Strilo
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Thats sort of where I was coming from, and I think where JMaster Luke was coming from as well. Either don't involve Yoda in the main events of the story, or else be preppared to have a different kind of portrayal of him. I guess it is preference really; there is interest to be had in a somewhat-wise-yet-deeply-flawed head Jedi who goes into isolation and learns to re-connect with nature and re-evaluate his views, but theres also a lot of appeal in the more archetypal spiritual guide from ESB that doesn't have a questionable history, and sort of "always" has kind of been amongst the teeming life of the primordial swamp that is Dagobah. Simply taking Yoda out of Dagobah changes the character enough, I think what is most effective is that he fits in as a sort of indiginous entity there, he is organic and frog-like and a sort of an earthy green and looks like he rose out of the swamp itself, and of course the motif of the swamp is sort of a metaphor for life. You still get that when you watch the episodes in order, but this "pure" view of Yoda doesn't really survive because you see him in a capital city attending senate meetings and having office conferences with politicians. The character cannot remain the same if you go this route, and while its not necessarily worse just different, I think a lot of people preferred the other way and regret having lost that "pure" view in the episodic Saga.
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LemmingLord
Title: PT Manager & CLUE Host
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
4/16 3:30pm
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
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Loco_for_Lucas posted:
I agree; the more I think about it, the best way around this would be to simply not have Yoda in the Prequels at all and have his introduction remain in ESB. The chain reaction that leads to the fall of the Republic is more feasible without the presence of someone who should know better.
That is an elegant solution. I'm not sure having Yoda in the prequels added anything to the story for me. Along the same lines, we could have Obi Wan be a jedi knight in TPM who is just working alongside Qui Gon - that gets around the "but I thought Yoda was THE master who instructed him?" - Then perhaps he could have taken the Jedi Master trials..
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LemmingLord
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Cryogenic
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/16 3:33pm
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
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Loco_for_Lucas posted:
The chain reaction that leads to the fall of the Republic is more feasible without the presence of someone who should know better.
Operative Word: SHOULD
On the other hand, this matter isn't about mere knowledge.
"I thought the Jedi would have more respect for the difference between knowledge and . . . wisdom."
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Loco_for_Lucas
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
4/16 3:46pm
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
- Date Edited:
4/16 3:58pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Loco_for_Lucas
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LemmingLord posted:
Loco_for_Lucas posted:
I agree; the more I think about it, the best way around this would be to simply not have Yoda in the Prequels at all and have his introduction remain in ESB. The chain reaction that leads to the fall of the Republic is more feasible without the presence of someone who should know better.
That is an elegant solution. I'm not sure having Yoda in the prequels added anything to the story for me. Along the same lines, we could have Obi Wan be a jedi knight in TPM who is just working alongside Qui Gon - that gets around the "but I thought Yoda was THE master who instructed him?" - Then perhaps he could have taken the Jedi Master trials..
Yeah, or maybe have the roles reversed and have Qui-gon be the young apprentice and Obi-wan be the rogue Jedi Master. It could work that way too, Obi-wan finds Anakin and is impressed with the boy's ability to use the Force and wants to train him as a Jedi, but the Council frowns upon it because he already has an apprentice, one who gets run through at the end. Basically give the Qui-gon Jinn character to Ben and have it go from there to further develop.
But yeah, by having Yoda absent, it falls on the other characters to make everything work and try to keep the Republic from falling apart. They don't have the same insight as Yoda, they don't have the timelessness of the ancient Jedi Master; their fall becomes more human and Yoda's ultimate death takes on more significance.
With Yoda finally passing away, the Galaxy has no other hope except for Luke. The last of the ancients has gone, so there is no choice for Luke but to fix what is broken. All of this is possible by preserving Yoda's dignity and integrity, by keeping him as an untapped resource for the Galaxy that could have solved all their problems had they simply sought out his wisdom. By having Yoda exist, and not searched for, places responsibility on fallible characters capable of error.
Yoda is better served as the prototypical "wiseman at the top of the mountain." What makes him so wise is his mystical ability to separate himself from the follies and foibles of mortals. He is so wise, he knows he needs not be involved, but will offer his wisdom to those who seek it.
Alas, that did not happen.
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zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
4/16 8:16pm
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
- Date Edited:
4/16 8:37pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
zombie
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Vortigern99 posted:
zombie posted:
... its not really tangical... Emperor Gargamel has to be able to trick him... Emperor Gargamel has to be the leader of the Republic....
"Tangical?" Gargamel? Zombie, did you just come back from the dentist? You seem a little woozy. 
Tangical! Its like Tangible, but funner! And don't tell me you haven't thought the same thing about Gargamel.
"I've waited a long time for this, my little green friend!"
LocoforLucas posted:
Yoda is better served as the prototypical "wiseman at the top of the mountain." What makes him so wise is his mystical ability to separate himself from the follies and foibles of mortals. He is so wise, he knows he needs not be involved, but will offer his wisdom to those who seek it.
Thats exactly it. In this view, then, the PT character is really not the same character, functionally--he looks similar (though much different I must say!), he talks similar (though much different I also must say!) but his function is a very different characterisation. Its interesting too that it could be possible to sort of reflect the OT Yoda in a more urban context in that he is in a huge tower that you must travel to in order to seek him out, a sort of modern equivalent to the "man on the holy mountain"--though Lucas' point of departure is that he made this a twist in that its a ivory tower that instead brings to mind the corruption and distance the Jedi order has lowered itself to.
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Pizza-the-Hutt
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/19 8:47am
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
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This is an issue I've thought about as well. In the OT we're given the impression that Yoda is the most powerful Jedi, and so this begs the question of why he wasn't able to stop the Emperor from gaining control.
I don't think that having Yoda work in a library, or actually absent from the PT in general, would solve this problem. We are then lead to believe that rather than being unable to prevent the Empire's formation he was simply unwilling. Whether he was appreciated by the other Jedi or not, surely when it was clear that things were going awry, Yoda should be the one to stand up against it. If not then I think this is more damaging to his character.
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JMaster Luke
Registered:
May '00
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Date Posted:
4/22 11:49am
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
- Date Edited:
4/22 12:00pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Strilo
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Thats not true. Imagine if Yoda who works in the libary keeps telling obi wan or even Mace windu that they need to do something, or they should use this new clone army or they should be mindful of the chancallor, this would make Yoda smart. Yoda as ONE Jedi can not take down the Federation. The Jedi as a whole need to make wise choices but the new Jedi are "more arrigont" "to wise of themselves" Only Yoda would be the one warning them, but by the time they find out whats going on its to late.
Then having Yoda face the Emperor is Yodas time to try to solve all issues.
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
4/24 11:13am
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
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Are you saying he should be like Mr. Miyagi, sitting back while Danielson gets whooped, and then swooping in at the last and taking on the bad guys?
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/24 1:45pm
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
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You mean like in AOTC?
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
4/24 5:22pm
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
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Oh yeah. Oops. 
Wax on.
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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
4/25 12:18am
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
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For me the problem starts with the notion that the Jedi Order needs to be arrogant or something for the fall to take place. The PT never really presents the Jedi Order in a way that lets us really root for bringing those traditions back in the OT. There's not even so much as a throwaway line about Qui-Gon's rebelliousness being about bringing the Jedi back to their roots or something to suggest that even though the Jedi Order we see in the prequels kinda sucks, it used to be really great.
So when all of a sudden Obi-Wan and Yoda are like "Luke be a Jedi tonight", there's nothing to get excited about. Big deal, let's resurrect the sucky order that led the galaxy into its current mess, so it can start the cycle over and screw things up all over again.
Lucas made the good guys (including Yoda) TOO flawed in the PT, so that they basically deserve what they get. I don't feel bad for the Jedi in the PT, even though everything in the OT suggests that I should.
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Nordom
Registered:
Jun '04
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Date Posted:
4/25 5:51am
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon posted:
For me the problem starts with the notion that the Jedi Order needs to be arrogant or something for the fall to take place. The PT never really presents the Jedi Order in a way that lets us really root for bringing those traditions back in the OT. There's not even so much as a throwaway line about Qui-Gon's rebelliousness being about bringing the Jedi back to their roots or something to suggest that even though the Jedi Order we see in the prequels kinda sucks, it used to be really great.
So when all of a sudden Obi-Wan and Yoda are like "Luke be a Jedi tonight", there's nothing to get excited about. Big deal, let's resurrect the sucky order that led the galaxy into its current mess, so it can start the cycle over and screw things up all over again.
Lucas made the good guys (including Yoda) TOO flawed in the PT, so that they basically deserve what they get. I don't feel bad for the Jedi in the PT, even though everything in the OT suggests that I should.
I agree with you totally.
I feel that the jedi in the PT were TOO flawed and that they were flawed in the wrong way.
They were cold, distant, uncaring, arrogant and far too often somewhat dim.
This made it hard for me to care for them and root for them and when they got wiped out I felt neither sad nor much sorrow, it was mostly just a "so what".
You could have a flawed or weakened jedi order in the PT but keep the individual jedi mostly wise and noble. Say that the jedi order used to be an independent force for good in the galaxy, that they often did help the senate and looked after the republic but they were not really a part of the senate or the goverment. Then some 100-200 years before the PT, the jedi council decided that the jedi order should become a part of the republic goverment and subject to the senate for various reasons. This caused a rift among the jedi, that some felt that the jedi should not be subject to political whims and later on, as the senate got more corrupt, that the jedi should not dishonor themselves by serving such a corrupt body.
Some jedi actually left the order and became free agents for good in protest over this, Yoda could have been one of them. He went to Dagobah and he still trained some jedi but he did not involve himself so much in the day to day dealings of the jedi order.
You could even have Dooku as a genuine renegade jedi and not a sith and that he truly felt that his "rebellion" was justified but he was being played by Palpatine.
Regards
Nordom
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LemmingLord
Title: PT Manager & CLUE Host
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
4/25 7:12am
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
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One thing that bumms me out from the novelezation of ROTS is Yoda admitting that the Jedi and he himself were too arogant and that's why the Jedi get creamed. I too would have liked to see other reasons why they failed. I would have liked to have seen the Jedi not be so centralized - with several monastic orders and perhaps even military orders. I know it would have been much more difficult from a story telling standpoint to figure out how they could all be beaten in a non-centralized system, but hey, I think G.L. coulda figured something out. 
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
4/25 3:39pm
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
- Date Edited:
4/25 3:46pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
ShaneP
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Lemming, I think Lucas could have simply shown the jedi in episode one as these ranger-samurai types leading up to the clone wars, and then convening a "war" council and becoming more centralized as episodes 2 and 3 are unveiled.
edit
Nordom suggested above a good idea that would fit right into this:
Some jedi could bolt when this happens.
Maybe some of them see the war for what it really is and leave?
Then along comes AOTC and you have these "Lost 20", those who dropped out and left rather than be a part of the war,or at least how the council wanted to handle it and the ties to the bureaucracy.
My God, you could almost keep the librarian's dialogue completely intact and it would still work. She's talking about Dooku and Qui-Gon's belief in the senate being corrupt, etc.
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LemmingLord
Title: PT Manager & CLUE Host
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
4/26 8:20am
Subject:
RE: How to have kept Yoda wise in the PT.
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ShaneP posted:
Lemming, I think Lucas could have simply shown the jedi in episode one as these ranger-samurai types leading up to the clone wars, and then convening a "war" council and becoming more centralized as episodes 2 and 3 are unveiled.
Awesome idea Shane!! I actually have this "Ben Edition" in my head of the PT. I may have to incorporate that.
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