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Topic:
How can anyone look upto Vader?
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NelanisGhost
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
4/23 9:40am
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
- Date Edited:
4/23 3:17pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Strilo
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True. How many times do you hear,"It's not what it looks like!" Or, "It's not what you think!" That's why Obi-wan shouldn't have done it. I agree they were all emo and NOT THEMSELVES. They are all rational people, usually. Padme was most out of character, because she was pregnant, and pregnant women aren't themselves. Anakin didn't really want to turn to the Darkside, he just wanted Padme to live. It wasn't about what he didn't want.
And O-W's serving democracy is a JOKE. If he wanted to serve democracy, he would have been a seperatist. He served the enslaver just like the rest. There was no way for Obi-wan to get the upper hand after Order 66. So he went for revenge.His time could have been better used by meeting with surviving Jedi and regrouping. Making Padme go home to be with her family instead of on a planet where a bunch of people wanted to kill her. Then when Anakin was off guard, he could have confronted him. Padme would have been alive so his real reason would've been taken away, since Palpatine totally lied.
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May God Bless America.
Grateful to have a job and a roof over my head.
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MasterAnders
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/23 10:03am
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
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Obi Wan did not want revenge!! He did what he had to do.
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" I have abided by three laws in my life. Honor the gods, love your woman, and defend your country"
Hector: Prince of Troy
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
4/23 11:33am
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
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I wasn't speaking of what Obi-Wan should have said in terms of it doing any good. I was speaking in terms of what a best friend/brother would say in that situation, imo. Obi-Wan just started shouting demands then went on to talk about politics and that to me was not appropriate in terms of the writing of the scene. But I have made it work in my head by assigning them all to the crazy farm in that period of the movie and nutters might say and do anything. It was a grouping of very intense situations so it is possible they were all a little crazy.
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/23 12:14pm
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
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NelanisGhost posted:
Making Padme go home to be with her family
Making her go against her will, eh? And then you'd be complaining that evil Obi-Wan forced Padme to go to Naboo against her will!
NelanisGhost posted:
since Palpatine totally lied.
Only in your wishful thinking.
-----signature-----
"That power is evilly-gained and is evil in itself. The blade's strength will continue to increase and yours will, also.
But, as Chaos-begotten power fills your being, you will have to fight, yet more strongly, to control the force within you."
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EternalEmpire
Registered:
Apr '08
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Date Posted:
4/23 12:51pm
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
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1. Because it's a story. Villains kick ass in stories. Vader in real life I would be less fond of.
2. He is shiny.
3. You have a Maul icon, you seem to think he is pretty neat, yes?
4. He is shiny.
5. Did you hear that kid. He deserved to be slaughtered.
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Jango10
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
4/23 1:14pm
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
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NelanisGhost posted:
And O-W's serving democracy is a JOKE. If he wanted to serve democracy, he would have been a seperatist. He served the enslaver just like the rest. There was no way for Obi-wan to get the upper hand after Order 66. So he went for revenge. His time could have been better used by meeting with surviving Jedi and regrouping. Making Padme go home to be with her family instead of on a planet where a bunch of people wanted to kill her. Then when Anakin was off guard, he could have confronted him. Padme would have been alive so his real reason would've been taken away, since Palpatine totally lied.
A JOKE? If he wanted to serve democracy, he would have been a Seperatist? That makes no sense. The Jedi were fighting for the Republic. They were fighting to preserve democracy. Why would Obi-Wan join the Separatists, when they were trying to destroy the Republic? That makes no sense. The Jedi were fighting for what they thought was right, but they were deceived by a lie.
Obi-Wan couldn't regroup with the other Jedi. First off, they weren't sure if there were any other Jedi. And second, time was of the essence. The longer they wait, the longer Palpatine has to secure his place as Emperor.
How can you say Obi-Wan was going for revenge? He didn't even want to fight Anakin in the first place.
Obi-Wan: "Send me to kill the Emperor."
Your entire argument makes no sense.
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"I love the smell of Napalm in the morning."
McCain/Palin '08
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NelanisGhost
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
4/23 2:03pm
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
- Date Edited:
4/23 2:17pm (4 edits total)
Edited By:
NelanisGhost
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
NelanisGhost posted:
Making Padme go home to be with her family
Making her go against her will, eh? And then you'd be complaining that evil Obi-Wan forced Padme to go to Naboo against her will!
No, but she did die because of what he did. If he wouldn't have gone to sneak onto her ship she would have lived. If you read the book, Anakin WAS going to go with her, until he saw Obi-wan.
NelanisGhost posted:
since Palpatine totally lied.
Only in your wishful thinking.
Palpatine: "Only though me can you achieve a power greater than any jedi......Save your wife from certain death....Use my power...I beg of you, take my power....the power of the Darkside, the power to save Padme."
That was my wishful thinking? Did you watch some other version of ROTS?
I wasn't speaking of what Obi-Wan should have said in terms of it doing any good. I was speaking in terms of what a best friend/brother would say in that situation, imo. Obi-Wan just started shouting demands then went on to talk about politics and that to me was not appropriate in terms of the writing of the scene. But I have made it work in my head by assigning them all to the crazy farm in that period of the movie and nutters might say and do anything. It was a grouping of very intense situations so it is possible they were all a little crazy.
I agree, they were all off kilter. It reminds me that Palpatine gets what he waited for. In TPM novel, he sits there and thinks while at the funeral of QuiGon, "All will be made to suffer, all will be made to pay." nd he meant Obi-wan, Padme and Anakin.
A JOKE? If he wanted to serve democracy, he would have been a Seperatist? That makes no sense. The Jedi were fighting for the Republic. They were fighting to preserve democracy. Why would Obi-Wan join the Separatists, when they were trying to destroy the Republic? That makes no sense. The Jedi were fighting for what they thought was right, but they were deceived by a lie.
The government never really helped people. The Jedi helped by protecting the memebers of the government. So they enforced corruption albeit unwittingly.
Obi-Wan couldn't regroup with the other Jedi. First off, they weren't sure if there were any other Jedi. And second, time was of the essence. The longer they wait, the longer Palpatine has to secure his place as Emperor.
Yes, he could have. He does eventually anyway. Besides, Palpatine was already emperor. It was done. Yoda lost against him, so even with Anakin dead it would have made no difference. He was still the emperor.
How can you say Obi-Wan was going for revenge? He didn't even want to fight Anakin in the first place.
Obi-Wan: "Send me to kill the Emperor."
And Yoda told him no. He had to kill Anakin. It was a direct order from Yoda. Obi-wan did it because he wanted to. At that point, he wasn't answerable to anyone. There was no order left to answer to.
Your entire argument makes no sense.
It makes sense if you don't refuse to see my POV. All he did by going to Mustafar was make things worse, not for himself so much as the people of the galaxy, by not having the guts to go and actually DO what he went there for, he only failed. He had Padme die, Anakin lived and became evil incarnate. Just like Luke, he achieved little by rushing off prematurely. It also bother s me that he went out of his way to redeem evil Ventress but didn't do any such thing for Anakin.
At least be regrouping first, it could have helped, as Anakin was very weak after Mustafar, and an organized group could have dealt with him. By Order 66, it was already too late to stop Palpatine. He held ALL the cards and did the whole time.
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May God Bless America.
Grateful to have a job and a roof over my head.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/23 2:14pm
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
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>Did you watch some other version of ROTS?
What about that was a lie? The dark side providing the potential to "save the ones you love" does not mean that they become INVULNERABLE GODS THAT CANNOT DIE FOR ANY REASON, EVEN IF THE DARK SIDE PRACTITIONER IS NOT PRESENT.
-----signature-----
"That power is evilly-gained and is evil in itself. The blade's strength will continue to increase and yours will, also.
But, as Chaos-begotten power fills your being, you will have to fight, yet more strongly, to control the force within you."
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NelanisGhost
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
4/23 2:18pm
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
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Oh please, if that isn't as much as a promise to save Padme, I don't know what is. Do what I tell you and I'll show you how to save Padme. He lied.
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Grateful to have a job and a roof over my head.
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Jango10
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
4/23 2:24pm
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
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NelanisGhost posted:
And Yoda told him no. He had to kill Anakin. It was a direct order from Yoda. Obi-wan did it because he wanted to. At that point, he wasn't answerable to anyone. There was no order left to answer to.
You just contradicted himself. Obi-Wan wanted to kill the Emperor. He did not want to kill Anakin. That is why he first tried to talk Anakin out of it, before Anakin attacked him.
I will agree that Palpatine lied to Anakin though. First he promised that he knew how to keep people from dying. Then after Anakin converted, he was like, "If we work together, we can discover the secret." He was already changing the deal.
I still don't see how Obi-Wan caused Padme's death. Padme died because of a broken heart, not of her injuries. Her heart was already broken, even before Anakin choked her (but it didn't really help). I still don't see how you can place the blame on Obi-Wan.
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"I love the smell of Napalm in the morning."
McCain/Palin '08
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/23 3:13pm
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
- Date Edited:
4/23 3:17pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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NelanisGhost posted:
Oh please, if that isn't as much as a promise to save Padme, I don't know what is. Do what I tell you and I'll show you how to save Padme. He lied.
No, he didn't. LIE is a word in the English language, and it has a fixed definition.
Having the power to save a person does not mean that person cannot die!
An outcome that fails to please poor little Anakin does NOT automatically mean that someone lied!
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"That power is evilly-gained and is evil in itself. The blade's strength will continue to increase and yours will, also.
But, as Chaos-begotten power fills your being, you will have to fight, yet more strongly, to control the force within you."
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NelanisGhost
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
4/23 3:33pm
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
- Date Edited:
4/23 3:40pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
NelanisGhost
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I don't agree. He was a manipulating liar. He is the true villain in the films. Don't tell me that Palpatine is a hapless little victim too, and in the entirety of the galaxy, only Anakin had EVER done a wrong thing! I get tired of the Anakin haters. It's all part of SW. If you don't like it's central character then you don't like SW.
He was seduced to the darkside of the force. THAT WAS THE SEDUCTION. Nothing Palps says is pointless, nothing he says is accidental. He played on a desperate kid's profound love for someone. He was the evil one. I really just pity Anakin. He was a kid. A KID. Against a man with the tongue of the serpent. Even Yoda never figured anything out and he's nearly 1000 years OLD! and Anakin is supposed to be smarter than that? It's impossible. Anakin basically in Palps clutches since he was nine and the Jedi let the relationship continue, because it was to their benefit. He could run over and get an immediate audience. He was basically used by both parties, for their own agendas and tried to please both. In the end, after many years of total loyalty to both, he's not liked nor trusted by neither. Held in contempt. That is a pretty sad situation. Padme was the only person that really ever loved him.
The great thing about the PT is that's it's situations are not black and white. It's easy to be heroic with no emotional investment. It's harder with the people that you love and that you care about. Split loyalties always happen in a wartime situation. Esp., when everyone isn't as perfect as we thought. Everyone makes mistakes in the PT, everyone is flawed.
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Grateful to have a job and a roof over my head.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/23 3:56pm
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
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None of that makes Palpatine a liar ( to Anakin ). Again, "lie" is a word, and words mean things.
>>Don't tell me that Palpatine is a hapless little victim too, and in the entirety of the galaxy, only Anakin had EVER done a wrong thing!
I never said that. You seem to think it can only be one extreme or the other.
It's absolutely absurd for you to assume I would argue that only Anakin had ever done a wrong thing in the entirety of the galaxy. You do realize I've watched these movies, right?
-----signature-----
"That power is evilly-gained and is evil in itself. The blade's strength will continue to increase and yours will, also.
But, as Chaos-begotten power fills your being, you will have to fight, yet more strongly, to control the force within you."
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Jango10
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
4/23 4:11pm
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
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NelanisGhost posted:
Padme was the only person that really ever loved him.
Obi-Wan: "You were my brother Anakin! I loved you!"
I'd say it is also safe to say that Luke loved him as well.
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"I love the smell of Napalm in the morning."
McCain/Palin '08
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Darth_Davi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/23 6:38pm
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
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Agreed, Jango10. Its Obi-Wan's love for Anakin that made him so heartbroken to have to be in the position of possibly having to kill him. Obi-Wan would have done almost anything for Anakin, he just wouldn't betray the Jedi for him, that's all. Obi-Wan couldn't have felt closer to Anakin even if they had been blood brothers. But Anakin betrayed everyone, so Obi-Wan had to do what he had to do. Just because you love someone doesn't mean you have to allow them to do something you know is wrong. I love my brothers, but if I found out one of them was planning on doing something I know is absolutely wrong, you can bet I am gonna kick his ass, brother or not. Obi-Wan didn't let his love for his brother get in the way of his duty to the Jedi, and to the Force. That doesn't mean his love for Anakin was diminished. He had a hard decision to make, and he made it.
As for Luke, isn't that the entire reason for the ending of ROTJ? That Luke's love for his father, his enduring faith that there was still good in him, that convinced Anakin to cast aside Darth Vader, and rejoin the Light?
Didn't Padme herself say that Anakin was going someplace she couldn't follow? Didn't Padme have the same courage Obi-Wan did, in trying to sway Anakin from the path he was taking? If Obi-Wan is to blame for trying to stand in Anakin's way, why isn't Padme getting blamed for doing the same? Both Padme and Kenobi intended to talk some sense into Skywalker...the only difference is Kenobi was capable of defending himself against Anakin's Force assisted tantrums, Padme could not.
All three truly loved Anakin Skywalker.
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Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide!
It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
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