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Topic:
How can anyone look upto Vader?
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Jango10
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
4/23 6:43pm
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
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I don't disagree with you Darth_Davi. 
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"I love the smell of Napalm in the morning."
McCain/Palin '08
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KennethMorgan
Registered:
Sep '04
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Date Posted:
4/24 7:13am
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
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I can't say I look up to Vader. I respect him, the same way I'd respect a live hand grenade or a gun pointed at my head. Yes, he has style, power and wit, but he's still a very dangerous individual.
And, while Anakin finds redemption at the end, you can't really say he doesn't receive some measure of punishment. After all, during the course of the story, he's dismembered, immolated, permanently crippled, loses custody of his children, is electrocuted and dies of his injuries. The worst he'd get in the real world is either life without parole or lethal injection (depending on the state).
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Jedi_Master_Cazz
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
4/24 7:16am
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
- Date Edited:
4/24 7:27am (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Jedi_Master_Cazz
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Well. Apart from the fact that we've been off topic for two and a half pages... 
And I wonder, what would Anakin say if he were here?
So? How can anyone look up to Vader? Because he was Anakin.
Even though Vader told himself that he'd severed all ties from his Skywalker heritage, in essence, he had not. He still felt the thrill of battle, still yearned to fly a fighter in a dogfight, still delighted in mechanics. The man was a genius! Weather he was in Vader mode or not! But remember, he always claimed Luke Skywalker as his only son. And that has made all the difference.
We all say that Vader used oh so many people, and thats true. But Palpatine used him. Anakin just truly wanted to set things right. He knew he was the chosen one, he felt that it was his duty to put all the badness right. He just wanted to help.  But, even though his blood runs 'silver' with his uh... relation, to the force, he's still human. If you cut Luke Skywalker, the ultimate lovable hero, what colour does he bleed? Red. If you cut Han Solo, rough smuggler, what colour does he bleed? Red. If you cut Obi-wan Kenobi, model Jedi, the famed Negotiator, what colour does he bleed? Red.
When Anakin Skywalker was cut, oh so many times, the immortalized Hero Without Fear, what colour did he bleed? Red. If you cut Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, murderer, demon, what colour does he bleed? Red.
In the end, I don't think there's a point to argue about who was wrong, why so and so did this and such and such. It was a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away. Thank the maker for that.
Cheers_Cazza 
-----signature-----
"That shield is certainly putting a crimp in my day!" - Obi-wan.
"Does this happen to you often?" - Snips.
"Everywhere I go!" - Skyguy.
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Proud Padawan to Master VaderLV64!
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Dark_Jedi_Kenobi
Title: • Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
4/25 8:20am
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
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Cazz is absolutely right, let's keep this discussion on topic. 
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***Host of the PT Trivia Challenge Game 12: Question 10 Posted!*** http://boards.theforce.net/prequel_trilogy/b10669/23314477/p4/?184
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SHAD0W-JEDI
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/26 7:37am
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
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Interesting question.....
For me, one of the biggest changes wrought by the Prequels is the change in how I see Darth Vader. There is, for me, literally no going back (and I will stop saying "FOR ME" from here on in - lets just take it as a given!)...
When I saw the "classic" three movies, I had some idea of Vader's backstory... that is, broadly, we knew he had once been a Jedi, a pupil of ObiWan's, that he had turned on the Jedi, betrayed them... we learned he was the father of Luke and Leia, etc, etc. ESB and ROTJ added to the character's depth, in that we could see there WAS some conflict within him... as "bad" as he was - and he was plenty bad! - he was not WHOLLY bad, and felt some measure of ...regret? ... over his fate. We also learned that, as bad as Vader was, there was someone MUCH worse, holding Vader under his thumb - the Emperor.
All that being said, Vader was, I think, a classic "comic book" villain, like Doctor Doom and company. He was bad, yes, evil, yes, but in a kind of "cool" and impressive way. Funny, the other day, I heard a passage in a church service where folks are asked if they reject the "glamour of evil", and it struck me - great phrase. Vader, kind of like Maul and Fett, had a GLAMOUR about him. He was cool and impressive and dignified and powerful.
Then I met the Prequel Vader... Anakin.
The Prequels humanized Vader, rather remarkably. Here was the very young man who went into that suit, in 3D. Vader became a lot more human, a lot more complex, a lot more "real". But he also became much more clearly evil, on a very basic level that stripped him of a lot of that glamour and coolness. It is one thing to Force Choke some snotty Imperials, and even - as bizarre as this may sound! - to collaborate with Tarkin to blow up an entire planet. Those are evil acts, clearly, but they are also...well... larger than life, "impersonal", they are villainy on a grander, less threatening level (yes, I know - odd to say about the destruction of a world!). But the Prequel Vader...here we saw greed, fear, selfishness, we SAW, vividly, the betrayal of friends and colleagues, even to the point of murder, we saw primitive vengeance, the choking of his pregnant wife, the murder of children, the "Dark Side" resentment and jealousy of ObiWan turned to violent rage, and more. It was all very real and base and ....disturbing. It was all too human and petty and scary because of it.
I came to see Vader as a sad, pitiable figure - and one whose evil was all the more destructive and personal and direct. Harder to overlook or rationalize, even as it was easier to understand.
I fully grant, Anakin/Vader is a "tragic hero" in the old school mode. He had good in him, and did much good. He had the capacity for greatness...but succumbed to fatal flaws in his character.
"Look up" to Vader? For me, after the Prequels? No.
Shadow
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
4/26 7:39pm
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
- Date Edited:
4/26 7:40pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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Well in a real world light, Anakin did feel remorse, kill the emperor, bring balance to the force and restore the republic - and before and during the clone wars he fought for the Jedi, rescued many opressed nations, freed many enslaved people, warded off tons of enemy fighters both on the ground and in the air, and wiped out Dooku and a bunch of other bad guys - he can be looked up to for those things.
He also killed tons of Jedi young and old, strangled a good number of officers, stood by while Tarky blew up a planet, wipe out a bunch of Tuskins, slaughtered the separtists of old, likely killed a bunch of others during the 20 years of his Sith-hood and tortured, maimed and threatened others - those things were not factors one usually enumerates when speaking of admirable folk to look up to, so I'd have to say one would look down on those things.
However, as to the first paragraph, if as a moviegoer, Heroes make you barf, then you'd look down on Anakin for all of that. And in the case of the second paragraph, if villains make you cheer, then you'd look up to Vader for those things.
It is altogether possible you could be crazy like me and feel lots of the above things. I agree with myself in the first two paragraphs and love both the hero and the villain in the last. 
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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Padme501st
Registered:
Sep '06
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Date Posted:
4/26 9:26pm
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
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I love Vader, he is one of my favorite SW characters. I dont look up to him, i dont want to do anything that he does in real life, but he is cool in that he has that "i do whatever i want" attitude and can actually do whatever he wants.
Surprisingly my love for the character grew everytime a new prequel came out. From what i read these last 5 pages, that will probably shock many of you. I think is cause in the OT he was just badass for no reason. And then when i got to know him, you realize there's layers. Anakin/Vader chose certain paths to deal with the conflicts in his life that we, in the real world, should NOT choose. He isnt a goody goody who does everything right, he isnt brainwashed by the Jedi Council (i'm not saying that's a good thing) but you can see he tries, he WANTS to be good, he WANTS to do the right thing, to believe the Jedi Order like all his fellow jedi does. But there's a part of him that says he isnt good enough.
Anyways, going back to why i love Vader even with the "killing younglings" scene because he selfishly wanted to save his wife's life. He chose the wrong path, the path we shouldnt take in our own life. When you look at Vader, you see what would happen if you picked those decisions. When you are stuck and you dont know whether one way would be better for you than another (ex. is it ok for me to be selfish in that area of my life or not, should i put my family's safety before the worlds... I know not really everyday ex.) you can see that if you pick the darker path, you can become what he became, that selfishness and greed is not the way to go and will destroy you and not help you in the long run, that immediate satisfaction is definitely not always the best thing, you can think you are doing good but you need to look outside the box and see if it's really good or just good for you. And most importantly, if someone close to you has taken "The darker path" in whatever area of their life, there is always hope, even the worst CAN change, and you should always try to help them like Luke tried to help his dad return to the light side and not give up on him like Obiwan seems to have done when he is chatting with Luke.
Ok now to the Padme/Obiwan/Anakin discussion. I believe Obiwan definitely screwed up big time in how he approached Padme and in using her ship to get to Anakin. I believe that he is in part responsible for Anakin chocking her. IMO he should have waited at the landing platform on Coruscant, put a homing beacon on her ship and followed her with his. In that way, i think Anakin would have been able to see it as "he followed you" instead of "you brought him here" and not have acted impusively with chocking her.
I also think that Palpatine is the true evil in the story, he wasnt deceived at all, he deceived everyone and knew exactly what he was doing
And dont even get me started on the Jedi Council's involvement in turning Anakin into Darth Vader, they played a huge role in that as well.
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Eternity85
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
4/27 6:22am
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
- Date Edited:
4/27 6:28am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Eternity85
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I agree about the council, the way they presented themself`s to this little boy from Tatooine was horrible. The Jedi needed to change, and in the end they payed the price for their ignorance.
I know its probably wrong, but i always feel like the destruction of the old Jedi order was part of the prophecy, part of Anakins destiny, that the prophecy was divided into two parts, one dark and one light.
I dont think anyone can look up to Vader, but the reason we all admire him in a way, is that he is such a human character. I believe many of us could see much of ourself`s in him. We have all been there you know. Only that with Anakins powers, the consequence would be way more terrible than if we would make the same mistakes.
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Don`t worry, be happy..
A kind & sincere smile is the greatest gift in life.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/27 10:49am
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
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Anakin could have fulfilled the prophecy right there in Palpatine's office, without the Jedi Order needing to be destroyed.
-----signature-----
"That power is evilly-gained and is evil in itself. The blade's strength will continue to increase and yours will, also.
But, as Chaos-begotten power fills your being, you will have to fight, yet more strongly, to control the force within you."
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Darth_Davi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/27 12:24pm
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
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quite true. In fact, had Anakin fulfilled his destiny right there, when he had a golden opportunity to do so, the Jedi wouldn't have been wiped out at all. Palpatine, dead, cannot issue Order 66. Palpatine, dead, cannot order Vader and the Clonetroopers to wipe out everyone in the Jedi Temple. The entire fate of the galaxy rested on one decision, made by one Jedi. Anakin was the ultimate shatterpoint.
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What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon?
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide!
It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
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Padme501st
Registered:
Sep '06
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Date Posted:
4/27 12:54pm
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
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^ But IMO the Jedi Order, especially the council, had become corrupt and arrogant. While the lives of many innocent people would have been spared, i dont think he would have fully fulfilled his destiny in restoring balance to the force. Something would have had to be done to the council and they definitely wouldnt have listened to Anakin, which then destroys the "fulfilling his destiny" part
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/27 3:53pm
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
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They would have aged out eventually.
-----signature-----
"That power is evilly-gained and is evil in itself. The blade's strength will continue to increase and yours will, also.
But, as Chaos-begotten power fills your being, you will have to fight, yet more strongly, to control the force within you."
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Jango10
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
4/27 4:22pm
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
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Padme501st posted:
^ But IMO the Jedi Order, especially the council, had become corrupt and arrogant. While the lives of many innocent people would have been spared, i dont think he would have fully fulfilled his destiny in restoring balance to the force. Something would have had to be done to the council and they definitely wouldnt have listened to Anakin, which then destroys the "fulfilling his destiny" part
But Lucas has said that "Bringing Balance to the Force" meant destroying the Sith.
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"I love the smell of Napalm in the morning."
McCain/Palin '08
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Padme501st
Registered:
Sep '06
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Date Posted:
4/27 6:08pm
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
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Jango10 posted:
But Lucas has said that "Bringing Balance to the Force" meant destroying the Sith.
Well then i agree he should have destroyed Palpatine before Order 66. And he could have, if Mace Windu hadnt told him to stay behind; with the other jedi with him, Anakin would have destroyed the sith. But he was left to think by himself with Palpatine's words in his head and no one to tell him different. He also arrives where Palpatine looks to be weak when in fact he wasnt.
Since Anakin had already taken the first steps by turning Palpatine in, he was in the mindset to go and get rid of the sith. Anakin was a man of action, once he gets in the zone, he goes straight for the goal. But Mace let him sit there and think it through. That was a huge mistake.
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
4/27 6:12pm
Subject:
RE: How can anyone look upto Vader?
- Date Edited:
4/27 6:16pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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I think it would have balanced the force if Anakin had killed Palpy in his office. But I don't say it in an accusatory way because 1) Anakin flat out screamed "No! Don't kill him. I NEED HIM!". And Mace did not respond to that statement at all. That is totally shortsighted of Mace to the 100th degree. Obi-Wan would have NEVER let that comment slide - never. I doubt even Yoda would. and 2) the Jedi had allowed their "chosen one" to become chummy with the counsellor, not that big of a deal until Anakin tells Mace that the chancellor is Palpatine. Now one can say that since Mace told Anakin to stay in the council chambers and Anakin disobeyed that it was all Anakin's fault that things went the way they did. But I don't see that at all. If Anakin had not come, Palpatine would have singed Mace and killed him. This had to be the case because it was not Mace's destiny to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the force - only Anakin could do that. So Mace made a poor decision to go there without Anakin - Mace should not have gone at all. His plan was to arrest Palpatine, but did he really believe a Sith lord was going to come willingly? And if he thought he could take a Sith Lord alone, he was sadly mistaken. Mace might not have believed that Anakin was the chosen one of the prophecy, but because everyone was unsure, Mace should not have taken the chance and tried to take down the Sith on his own (or with others that were not Anakin). They should have waited, planned and gone in later when things were more under control.
I am not laying the whole blame on Mace - it was a comedy of errors and the other masters with him agreed to go without Anakin too. But I'm just saying, the finger cannot be pointed directly at Anakin in that moment with out the finger pointer blushing a bit and looking sheepish because the other participants were not free of blame there.
-----signature-----
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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