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Topic:
Vader's only ever attacking those too weak to defend themselves proves he was never a real Sith
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Sitara
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
10/1 12:15am
Subject:
Vader's only ever attacking those too weak to defend themselves proves he was never a real Sith
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Just curious, the Sith Code seems toimply a certain type of honor. That is, the Sith apparently only use force when the foe is worthy of being fought. For example, Darth Sidious and Darth Maul together manipulated events and worked to bring down an entire Order of force users (10's of thousands of Jedi). Maul took on 2 powerful jedi at the same time. Darth Tyranus took on two jedi at the same time AND then took on Yoda. Palpatine took on FOUR Jedi at the same time.
Now lets look at vader: He kills younglings (and that by pretending to be a friend so they can let their guard down) he choked his own wife, a PREGNANT woman (which probably ended up being a major cause of her death). He attacks Luke who is an untrained boy and he attacks him from BEHIND, probably trying to kill him before the poor lad can offer resistance.
It seems to me that by not showing valor, courage and a dark sense of honor in the face of his foes, resorting to his battalions of stormtroopers to do the work he is too scared to handle himself and taking to the field only when the victims are children, women, and semi-trained boys Vader proves he is no true Sith. And even then he makes sure to have hordes of troopers backing him up.
This proves IMO that Palpatine only kept him around because Vader would never be a threat to him; he was to weak and more importantly too damn scared to ever defy or attack the emperor.
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Eta-2
Registered:
Jun '08
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Date Posted:
10/1 1:39am
Subject:
RE: Vader's only ever attacking those too weak to defend themselves proves he was never a real Sith
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If the Sith truly followed a code of honor, they would not resort to entering politics through deceptive means, eroding the civil liberties and laws that would otherwise prevent them from gaining large amounts of power, brutally executing and turning on the leaders of both sides of a phony war they orchestrated, and then follow all that up by an ever greater military buildup and creating a weapon (or two) that when fired, claims the lives of billions of unarmed civilians. Evil genius masterminds? Perhaps. Honorable? No.
-----signature-----
Flinging bodies would be more BA. The stormtroopers wouldn't just be like "oh it's a crate" They'd be like "That's Dave!".
-Sublime Skywalker on "The Force Unleashed"
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Sitara
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
10/1 2:40am
Subject:
RE: Vader's only ever attacking those too weak to defend themselves proves he was never a real Sith
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I am talking more along the lines of honor in lightsaber combat.
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yodas_waiter
Registered:
Oct '06
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Date Posted:
10/1 4:22am
Subject:
RE: Vader's only ever attacking those too weak to defend themselves proves he was never a real Sith
- Date Edited:
10/1 4:31am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
yodas_waiter
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Sitara posted:
I am talking more along the lines of honor in lightsaber combat.
The Sith are not honourable in lightsaber combat. Maul attacks Qui-Gon from behind on Tatooine, Tyranus is forced to attack two injured Jedi to escape from Yoda and Palpatine fakes defeat to lull Mace into a false sense of security and to convince Anakin of the evil plot of the Jedi before blasting a greivously injured Mace through the window. Honourable you say?
What sets the Sith apart from the Jedi is that the Sith do whatever it takes to win whilst the Jedi have a set of rules they must conform to. The Sith suffer no moral qualms and believe the end justify the means. This is their characterisation in the movies and a code of honour in lightsaber combat is incompatible with that characterisation. There is nothing in the movies that suggest some kind of code of honour in lightsaber combat.
Sitara posted:
This proves IMO that Palpatine only kept him around because Vader would never be a threat to him; he was to weak and more importantly too damn scared to ever defy or attack the emperor.
Excuse, but did you miss the last half hour of ROTS and most of TESB?
-----signature-----
Padawan to Sionnach-Airgid Author of Chyler databank entry Nominated Best New Author in Before the Saga 06/07 The Enforcer (SW Super-hero tribute): http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/28028864/p1/?2
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woj101
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
10/1 6:12am
Subject:
RE: Vader's only ever attacking those too weak to defend themselves proves he was never a real Sith
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"...did you miss the last half hour of ROTS and most of TESB?"
Exactly. By ignoring such substantial elements of Vader's onscreen time, you have only proved that this was never a real thread.
This party's over.
-----signature-----
You've failed Your Highness. I am a cider-drinker, like my father before me.
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Darth_Davi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
10/1 6:48am
Subject:
RE: Vader's only ever attacking those too weak to defend themselves proves he was never a real Sith
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not to mention it completely ignores the fact that Maul attempted vehicular homicide against Anakin in TPM, and that Vader was generally stronger than all his opposition, so it makes sense that they were weaker than he was...by comparison, very few Force users WEREN'T too weak to defend themselves adequately against the Chosen One.
-----signature-----
What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon?
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide!
It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
10/1 8:59am
Subject:
RE: Vader's only ever attacking those too weak to defend themselves proves he was never a real Sith
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In the PT (specifically ROTS), the only attacking that Vader did was against those left behind in the Jedi Temple, the CIS leadership, his wife and his former Jedi Master. Yes, all of them were weaker in the Force, but none of them had anything to do with his commitment to the Sith Order.
I don't think Vader fashioned (pun intended) himself as a Sith Lord until he ended up in the Suit. I don't think he took the darkside seriously at first... in fact, I think he underestimated what it was capable of. My POV is jaded by the Dark Lord Novel which went out of its way to emphasize that Vader wasn't really a Sith in his own mind. Not until after Mustafar.
IDK, Sitara... I'm not sure 'I get' where you are going with this one.
I expect that everyone Vader ever faced to be weaker, nor do I see how that relates to anything about being a Sith. We've had similar views here and on the other SITE, but I'm lost when it comes to this one.
-----signature-----
Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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Eta-2
Registered:
Jun '08
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Date Posted:
10/1 10:41am
Subject:
RE: Vader's only ever attacking those too weak to defend themselves proves he was never a real Sith
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I agree with Sx3 on Vader not really thinking he's a Sith until he gets all crispy and put into the suit. In ROTS he's very much an "I can quit anytime" junkie in denial.
-----signature-----
Flinging bodies would be more BA. The stormtroopers wouldn't just be like "oh it's a crate" They'd be like "That's Dave!".
-Sublime Skywalker on "The Force Unleashed"
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Darth_Davi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
10/1 10:57am
Subject:
RE: Vader's only ever attacking those too weak to defend themselves proves he was never a real Sith
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Either way, this is just a Maul rulz, Vader droolz thread, and not even a very convincing one.
-----signature-----
What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon?
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide!
It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
10/1 10:59am
Subject:
RE: Vader's only ever attacking those too weak to defend themselves proves he was never a real Sith
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Now why'd ya have ta go and muddy these waters?
Since you brought up the subject...
Are you turning into a closeted-Maul fan, Davi?
-----signature-----
Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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Obi-Chron
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
10/1 11:23am
Subject:
RE: Vader's only ever attacking those too weak to defend themselves proves he was never a real Sith
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^^^
Totally agree with Master Sx3!
When Anakin first pledged himself to serve Palpatine, it seemed more like: "Yeah, what-EVER! Can I get on with saving Padme now!" I believe someone in an earlier thread used similar (if not identical) terminology -- apologies for not recalling who and giving props.
As the mask descends upon him, we see a confused/concerned/frightened look upon Anakin's face. Lucas uses the armor to visually emphasize that Anakin is entombed from everything that was once near and dear to him.
Following-up Master Sx3's point about Anakin's motivations once inside the suit: once encased, the cave-in (pun intended) to the dark side begins. Padme is truly gone. Vader is physically entombed, emotionally left alone with his own tortured self. The powerful lens of the dark side focuses upon him and he becomes increasingly aware of its self serving power. His hate, his pain were tailored made for the dark side.
Vader only then truly realizes in his black hole of a heart once he 'had some' of the dark side, that he could never go back. Why? Because it happened to Palpatine! It happened to Count Dooku! And now it happened to HIM!
And there will be no hidden super-villain personna ala 'Palpatine/Sidious' or 'Dooku/Tyranus' with Anakin Skywalker. Once he's behind the helmet, it's "Vader time, all the time!"
-----signature-----
“It is by going down into the abyss that we recover the treasures of life. Where you stumble, there lies your treasure.”
~ Joseph Campbell
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
10/1 12:00pm
Subject:
RE: Vader's only ever attacking those too weak to defend themselves proves he was never a real Sith
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Darth_Davi posted:
the fact that Maul attempted vehicular homicide against Anakin in TPM
Because he obviously had no instructions to keep Anakin alive, contrary to what the NEC says.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
10/1 12:47pm
Subject:
RE: Vader's only ever attacking those too weak to defend themselves proves he was never a real Sith
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Hey Fenn, when was Anakin first called "the experiment" or whatever it was?
Was it Maul's junior Novel? I can't find my copy TPM's novelization. The NEC paints a slightly different picture, just as the EGTTF tried to do with Palpatine's thoughts on losing Maul. Or like the new packaging for the droid general that says he always wanted to be a Jedi...
***
Massster Obi-Chron! You smashed the nail with an anvil!!
The keypoint of your post dovetails nicely with Vader's ROTJ line:
"It is too late for me... my son."
Until Luke, all Vader had was the darkside...
Luke made him look and see outside the box he was trapped in.
-----signature-----
Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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Darth_Davi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
10/1 12:52pm
Subject:
RE: Vader's only ever attacking those too weak to defend themselves proves he was never a real Sith
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
Darth_Davi posted:
the fact that Maul attempted vehicular homicide against Anakin in TPM
Because he obviously had no instructions to keep Anakin alive, contrary to what the NEC says.
All I know is that in TPM, when Maul was charging towards the Naboo cruiser on Tatooine, he had the entire desert to avoid running over Anakin, and instead made a direct bee-line towards him. It was only because of Qui-Gon's warning that Anakin didn't get run over. That means Maul was intentionally trying to run him down, because he had the entire desert to approach from, and chose the direct path that would cause him to kill a 9 year old boy, whose importance Maul couldn't have had any idea about yet. Maul was trying to run over a kid. That counts as attacking those too weak to defend themselves in my book...
-----signature-----
What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon?
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide!
It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
10/1 1:04pm
Subject:
RE: Vader's only ever attacking those too weak to defend themselves proves he was never a real Sith
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Or, it could mean that Maul had no regard for whatever collateral damage he caused while in pursuit of achieving his objectives. Maul had one mission and three directives within. Capture the queen, take her to Naboo to sign the treaty and destroy the Jedi. If you think about strategically, Maul was right to head straight for the boy.
Kill the boy, upset the Jedi...
Maul already showed us that if a Jedi opened themselves up while fighting him, he was more than capable of taking advantage. Kenobi's anger got him Force pushed into the pit *(where only Lucas could save him). If Jinn watched the boy get run over, I'm sure he'd have had an emo moment. If Anakin had died there, I doubt any of them; besides the queen, would have made it out of Tattooine's desert alive.
-----signature-----
Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
10/1 2:06pm
Subject:
RE: Vader's only ever attacking those too weak to defend themselves proves he was never a real Sith
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Darth_Davi posted:
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Darth_Davi posted:
the fact that Maul attempted vehicular homicide against Anakin in TPM
Because he obviously had no instructions to keep Anakin alive, contrary to what the NEC says.
All I know is that in TPM, when Maul was charging towards the Naboo cruiser on Tatooine, he had the entire desert to avoid running over Anakin, and instead made a direct bee-line towards him. It was only because of Qui-Gon's warning that Anakin didn't get run over. That means Maul was intentionally trying to run him down, because he had the entire desert to approach from, and chose the direct path that would cause him to kill a 9 year old boy, whose importance Maul couldn't have had any idea about yet. Maul was trying to run over a kid.
I agree with all of the above.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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