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Author	Topic: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
ShaneP Title: Lucasfilm Projects Gremlin(Manager ) Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 7/1 2:07pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	morpha2 posted: ShaneP posted: That's actually a good point. Jar jar, if he was fighting in a war, wouldn't be considered AWOL. He didn't leave the fight until a retreat was sounded. Was he a doofus and a clumsy fool during the battle? Yes, he was. Did he flee at the first sound of battle and hide under a boomer cart? No, he did not. So while critics(one of them might even be me) can say he was clumsy and spaztastic during the battle, he was not AWOL and a deserter. Okay, but does "not AWOL" and "not a deserter" equate to being "heroic"? No it does not. My argument isn't that Jar Jar is a hero. My argument is that he remained in the fight. He did do things. He didn't flee and he didn't run until the retreat is sounded. -----signature----- Keep Your Words Sweet. You May Have To Eat Them.
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darth-sinister Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 7/1 2:54pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	Being a hero isn't so much about bravery, but about the actions you take. You could be scared out of your mind, but still do something that winds up being heroic. Jar Jar is clumsy, but he did try to do heroic things on purpose twice in TPM. First time was when Jar Jar was on the barrel of the hover tank and Tarpals tried to get him to use the Booma, Jar Jar had intended to use it to stop the tank. Granted, his clumsy attempts to catch it resulted in some hi-jinks, but in the end, he got to disable the tank. Later, when he realized that his tangled foot could be used as a weapon, he intentionally caused the fallen Battle Droid to fire on other Battle Droids. And yes, he surrendered when told to, because he knew that they couldn't fight all of them. He wasn't a warrior like Tarpals and Ceel. He didn't even want to be given a military rank. DarthApocalypse posted: Which is stupid, because they were moving faster than he was and it increases his chance of getting killed by the droids. And what was he supposed to do? Stand there and be run over by the giant Boomas? What about Indiana Jones and the giant boulder? Jar Jar ran because he knew that he was going to be hurt by the Boomas if he didn't. DarthApocalypse posted: I'll give him points for attempting to use the sling but I can't see how a fool who gets lucky is a heroic character. OBI-WAN: "In my experience, there's no such thing as luck." QUI-GON: "Our meeting was not a coincidence. Nothing happens by accident." Jar Jar may have been a clumsy fool, but what he pulled off was not luck. It was the will of the Force. His clumsy ways helped out. But he is heroic because he fought in the battle. Being heroic doesn't mean that he has to be Jedi like. Being heroic means that doing something noble without thought of reward or of one's self. Heroic or heroism, is based on actions. Not luck. -----signature----- Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge." Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side. Something, something, something complete."
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morpha2 Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 7/1 3:09pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong? - Date Edited: 7/1 7:22pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Dark_Jedi_Kenobi
	That's a nice bit of pocket wisdom from Obi-Wan and QGJ, but I don't see how it applies to Jar-Jar's "accidental" victories on the battlefield. Personally, I don't believe that every time he accidentally destroys a battle droid while in retreat or steps in poop that it's the "will of the Force." Your mileage may vary. And again, I take issue with pinning the term "heroic" on Jar-Jar. He was heroic because he fought (badly) in the battle even while still behaving like a coward? Have the standards of heroism in the GFFA fallen this far? DJK edit: No need to quote a long message if it's right above your own.
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Go-Mer-Tonic Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 7/1 7:10pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	Heroism is not defined by lack of fear or clumsyness. Jar-Jar intentionally went to battle against the battle droids, so he is therefore a hero. -----signature----- "...that’s not my job, to make people like my movies. They either like them or they don’t. That’s completely out of my hands.” -Lucas "At least I will have finished what I set out to do, and at least they will have been good to me." -Lucas
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Dark_Jedi_Kenobi Title: Manager: • Prequel Trilogy Registered: Oct '04	Date Posted: 7/1 7:25pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	I wouldn't say that that makes him a hero, but it certainly highlights an act of bravery on his part.
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Drewton Registered: Jan '09	Date Posted: 7/1 7:40pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	Didn't Jar Jar only go to/remain in/do much of anything in the battle because he was made a General by Boss Nass? Against his will? Which was one of the stupidest decisions in the prequels. -----signature----- http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-sith-lords-massive-improvement-mod The Sith Lords Massive Improvement Mod
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Dark_Jedi_Kenobi Title: Manager: • Prequel Trilogy Registered: Oct '04	Date Posted: 7/1 7:45pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	Not entirely. While it was Boss Nass' idea to promote Jar Jar to the rank of General, it was still up to Jar Jar to perform his new found duties. You can debate his heroism, etc. during the actual battle, however as the droids were marching on the Gungan shields, Jar Jar did his best to maintain order and calm among his troops.
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Go-Mer-Tonic Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 7/1 7:52pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	I think his bravery is what makes him heroic. -----signature----- "...that’s not my job, to make people like my movies. They either like them or they don’t. That’s completely out of my hands.” -Lucas "At least I will have finished what I set out to do, and at least they will have been good to me." -Lucas
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DarthApocalypse Registered: Apr '07	Date Posted: 7/1 8:56pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	darth-sinister posted: Being a hero isn't so much about bravery, but about the actions you take. You could be scared out of your mind, but still do something that winds up being heroic. Unless of course you weren't intending to do anything at all, and you benefit from a stroke of luck. darth-sinister posted: Jar Jar is clumsy, but he did try to do heroic things on purpose twice in TPM. First time was when Jar Jar was on the barrel of the hover tank and Tarpals tried to get him to use the Booma, Jar Jar had intended to use it to stop the tank. Granted, his clumsy attempts to catch it resulted in some hi-jinks, but in the end, he got to disable the tank. Disabling one battle droid =/= disabling the whole tank. I don't even see how a poobaa that small was going to take out the tank anyway. darth-sinister posted: Later, when he realized that his tangled foot could be used as a weapon, he intentionally caused the fallen Battle Droid to fire on other Battle Droids. And yes, he surrendered when told to, because he knew that they couldn't fight all of them. He wasn't a warrior like Tarpals and Ceel. He didn't even want to be given a military rank. That's not true. He was diving all over the place trying to get the droid off, not intentionally using it as a weapon. darth-sinister posted: And what was he supposed to do? Stand there and be run over by the giant Boomas? What about Indiana Jones and the giant boulder? Jar Jar ran because he knew that he was going to be hurt by the Boomas if he didn't. Run to the side, then up. darth-sinister posted: OBI-WAN: "In my experience, there's no such thing as luck." QUI-GON: "Our meeting was not a coincidence. Nothing happens by accident." Jar Jar may have been a clumsy fool, but what he pulled off was not luck. It was the will of the Force. Sorry, but I don't buy that every little thing that happens is the will of the Force. A clumsy fool is a clumsy fool. And your interpretation just makes Jar-Jar look worse. How can he have a noble purpose if he's just acting on the Force's orders? darth-sinister posted: His clumsy ways helped out. But he is heroic because he fought in the battle. Being heroic doesn't mean that he has to be Jedi like. Being heroic means that doing something noble without thought of reward or of one's self. Saving his own ass is doing something for himself. You act as if Jar-Jar wouldn't being benefiting from a Gungan victory. darth-sinister posted: Heroic or heroism, is based on actions. Not luck. Which is why Jar-Jar is not a hero. Would you think Vader was redeemed if instead of intentionally throwing Palpatine down the reactor shaft, he trips over his cape and accidentally pushes him in? -----signature----- Don't take life too seriously. Nobody gets out alive.
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anakin_girl Title: Founding Member & Retired FF CR Charlotte , NC Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 7/2 9:50am Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	OK, I only read the first page and this one. Jar-Jar didn't bother me that much. He was somewhat annoying but I never really got the "Jar-Jar must die!" sentiments that I saw floating around especially around the time that AOTC and ROTS were being made. That being said, I remember when TPM was being made and there was some talk that Jar-Jar was supposed to resemble Chewbacca as a sidekick. And sorry, but Jar-Jar was about as far from being a Chewbacca-like figure as I can imagine. Chewie was at least useful. OK, in all fairness, in TPM, Jar-Jar was somewhat useful, in helping Padme mobilize the Gungans to help the Naboo. But my point stands, Jar-Jar was no Chewie. I do think that Lucas took into account that the fans were not into Jar-Jar and incorporated less screen time for him for that reason, but still gave him an important role, in taking Padme's place in the Senate during her absence and in accelerating Palpatine's rise to power. I think Lucas may have underestimated what the fans wanted in a "sidekick" character. -----signature----- "A person should not believe in an -ism, a person should believe in himself." Ferris Bueller
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Go-Mer-Tonic Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 7/2 10:39am Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	According to Lucas, Jar-Jar was a hit with his target audience, and that it was mostly the 30 somethings that had a problem with him (which he expected after their less than friendly reaction to the Ewoks). According to Rick McCallum, Jar-Jar was originally going to have a much lesser role in Episode II and III, but because of the intense reaction he got, they expanded his role (especially in Episode II). According to Lucas, Jar-Jar's story really comes full circle in TPM. Personally, I can't think of one thing Chewie did to help the heroes aside from hitting the "hyperspace" button once Han had gotten the coordinates from the nava-computer. I guess he was useful as a "token alien prisoner" to complete Han and Luke's Storm trooper masquerade, in much the same way Jar-Jar came in handy helping Qui-Gon and Padme blend into the mostly alien locals of Mos Espa, but there is that part in ROTJ where Chewbacca becomes a liability as he gets the heroes ensnared in the ewok trap. Say what you want about Jar-Jar's incompetence, he never got the heroes captured, in fact his accident prone nature always proved beneficial to the heroes, even if it wasn't on purpose. And at least with Jar-Jar, you had a chance of understanding what he was saying. -----signature----- "...that’s not my job, to make people like my movies. They either like them or they don’t. That’s completely out of my hands.” -Lucas "At least I will have finished what I set out to do, and at least they will have been good to me." -Lucas
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morpha2 Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 7/2 1:42pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	Go-Mer-Tonic posted: Jar-Jar intentionally went to battle against the battle droids, so he is therefore a hero. That point is moot, anyway. By the time that Jar-Jar goes into battle, the audience doesn't expect him to run or go AWOL any more than they expect Obi-Wan and QGJ to ditch out on Darth Maul in the Duel of the Fates. For Jar-Jar to appear to have grown as a character, he must rise to the occasion and act heroically...hell, he just needs to seem serious for a minute, but he can't even manage that. Just showing up to the battle and being goofy is insufficient because it shows that he's the exact same dope wandering into dangerous situations that he was at the very outset of the film and therefore has not grown any.
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Go-Mer-Tonic Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 7/2 1:56pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	You are expecting Jar-Jar to stop being Jar-Jar. He can't help how clumsy he is. He not only showed up to the battle, he is shown to actively try to lead and inspire his men before the battle starts ("Steady Steady"). Then he is shown to actively fight the droids. He is shown to rise to the occasion, his still being clumsy has no bearing on that. -----signature----- "...that’s not my job, to make people like my movies. They either like them or they don’t. That’s completely out of my hands.” -Lucas "At least I will have finished what I set out to do, and at least they will have been good to me." -Lucas
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morpha2 Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 7/2 2:46pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	Go-Mer-Tonic posted: You are expecting Jar-Jar to stop being Jar-Jar. He can't help how clumsy he is. I wouldn't expect that unless I was looking for a sign of character growth. Go-Mer-Tonic posted: He not only showed up to the battle, he is shown to actively try to lead and inspire his men before the battle starts ("Steady Steady"). Again, showing up for the battle is meaningless. And the "Steady steady" line was played as a joke. His first "Steady" sounds almost authoritative...but then he self-consciously repeats it to remind the audience that he's still a fool pretending to know what he's doing. Go-Mer-Tonic posted: Then he is shown to actively fight the droids. Again, the relative valor of his fight against the droids is highly debatable. Go-Mer-Tonic posted: He is shown to rise to the occasion, his still being clumsy has no bearing on that. He is not shown to rise to anything. As you say, he's still "being Jar-Jar." Same character from the beginning of the movie, minimal growth at best. Anyway, I think this dead horse is pretty well beaten.
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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Registered: Dec '00	Date Posted: 7/2 2:52pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	Go-Mer-Tonic posted: Personally, I can't think of one thing Chewie did to help the heroes aside from hitting the "hyperspace" button once Han had gotten the coordinates from the nava-computer. I guess he was useful as a "token alien prisoner" to complete Han and Luke's Storm trooper masquerade, in much the same way Jar-Jar came in handy helping Qui-Gon and Padme blend into the mostly alien locals of Mos Espa, but there is that part in ROTJ where Chewbacca becomes a liability as he gets the heroes ensnared in the ewok trap. Well, there WAS that one other thing Chewie did. You know, talking to Ben and bringing him to the table with Han. Setting up the whole second half of the movie. And piloting the ship while Han and Luke took to the turrets. And rescuing 3PO from the Ugnaughts. And getting 3PO back online (though I won't hold that against him ). And saving Han and Lando from falling into the Sarlaac. And capturing the AT-ST with the Ewoks. And the way pretty much every time there's a fight of some kind, Chewie acquits himself admirably, and ON PURPOSE. None of that 'accidentally taking out a half-dozen droids with the droid bosy he can't shake off his leg' nonsense. I mean, if Obi-Wan's right and there's no such thing as luck, then Jar-Jar must be stronger in the Force than Anakin. -----signature----- Personally if treating homosexuals with respect and dignity is the definition of 'anti-Christian' then I hope that Obama is the friggin' anti-Christ. - FIDo
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