Author Topic: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
Darth_Laudrup  3976 posts
Title: Host:
PT Trivia Challenge

Registered: Jul '04
47880_Grevious (313)
Date Posted: 7/2 3:06pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
Indeed it has, and that is the reason that I suggested that some mod should close the discussion.

Everyone is basically repeating what they said before again and again and again.

 

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DarthApocalypse  639 posts
Registered: Apr '07
44297_501st Stormtrooper
Date Posted: 7/2 3:08pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
In addition to what Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon said, don't forget that Chewie saves a hanging Luke in ESB. Remember that Lando didn't want to go back for Luke, but Chewie overrode him. Also note that Chewie was the one protecting Leia after Han was frozen.

 

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Go-Mer-Tonic  19595 posts
Registered: Aug '99
8199_Han Solo
Date Posted: 7/2 3:12pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
I do my best to use different phraseology to keep things as fresh as possible.

Okay, there were things Chewie did that I hadn't brought up.

But Jar-Jar does a lot of stuff too, like taking the Jedi to Untah Gunga, Bringing the Heroes to the Sacred Place, inspiring Amidala to go back to Naboo to fight her oppressors, Watching Anakin while the adults discussed the political plotline, and he tried to help repair Anakin's pod racer.

The point is, Jar-Jar is at least as important as Chewbacca to the story, if not moreso.

Even though not everyone agrees with me, I think Jar-Jar shows character growth, while Chewie starts and stops as an unintelligible walking carpet.


 

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DarthApocalypse  639 posts
Registered: Apr '07
44297_501st Stormtrooper
Date Posted: 7/2 3:17pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
Chewie goes from a smuggler who only cares about himself and Han, to a member of the Rebel Alliance who cares about liberating the galaxy from the Empire. Jar-Jar remains a fool the whole time and plays a much smaller role than Chewie and has the distinction of being the fool that gives Palpatine emergency powers.

 

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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon  7522 posts
Registered: Dec '00
17824_Kieran Halcyon
Date Posted: 7/2 3:36pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
Go-Mer-Tonic posted:
Chewie starts and stops as an unintelligible walking carpet.


I can't believe this is coming from the same person who talks about Jar-Jar existing to teach children not to judge a book by its cover. Do you really not see the irony of this statement coming from you of all people?

WE'RE supposed to show all sorts of compassion and understanding for an irresponsible goofball like Jar-Jar, while YOU dismiss a demonstrably heroic character simply because he never speaks English?

But thank you for the concrete proof of your complete double-standard when it comes to judging the two trilogies.

 

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Go-Mer-Tonic  19595 posts
Registered: Aug '99
8199_Han Solo
Date Posted: 7/2 4:39pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong? - Date Edited: 7/2 4:42pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Go-Mer-Tonic
Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon posted:
Go-Mer-Tonic posted:
Chewie starts and stops as an unintelligible walking carpet.
I can't believe this is coming from the same person who talks about Jar-Jar existing to teach children not to judge a book by its cover. Do you really not see the irony of this statement coming from you of all people?

WE'RE supposed to show all sorts of compassion and understanding for an irresponsible goofball like Jar-Jar, while YOU dismiss a demonstrably heroic character simply because he never speaks English?

But thank you for the concrete proof of your complete double-standard when it comes to judging the two trilogies.
For the record I love Chewie and wouldn't change a thing about him.

I'm just applying the same level of disregard on him that many of you do to Jar-Jar to make a point. My double standard is meant to reflect your double standard.

This is how you guys sound to me in reverse when you refuse to even acknowledge Jar-Jar's heroism.

 

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"...that’s not my job, to make people like my movies. They either like them or they don’t. That’s completely out of my hands.” -Lucas
"At least I will have finished what I set out to do, and at least they will have been good to me." -Lucas
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DarthApocalypse  639 posts
Registered: Apr '07
44297_501st Stormtrooper
Date Posted: 7/2 5:15pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
How so? You acknowledge that most of what Jar-Jar does is by accident. Everything Chewie does is on purpose. Jar-Jar has many screw-ups, one of which is catastrophic. Chewie doesn't. I don't see the double standard.

 

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Go-Mer-Tonic  19595 posts
Registered: Aug '99
8199_Han Solo
Date Posted: 7/2 5:40pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong? - Date Edited: 7/2 5:41pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Go-Mer-Tonic
What did Jar-Jar do that was worse than getting the heroes stuck in the Ewok's net?

If you are talking about making a motion to grant the Chancellor "emergency powers", he merely made the motion. It was the rest of the Senate who voted that motion into being. If Jar-Jar hadn't made the motion, someone else would have.

 

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"...that’s not my job, to make people like my movies. They either like them or they don’t. That’s completely out of my hands.” -Lucas
"At least I will have finished what I set out to do, and at least they will have been good to me." -Lucas
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DarthApocalypse  639 posts
Registered: Apr '07
44297_501st Stormtrooper
Date Posted: 7/2 6:10pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
Nobody was going to because no other Senator wanted to be known for giving the Chancellor emergency powers. Except Jar-Jar. This is especially bad because he should have known that's not what Padme would have wanted.

 

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Go-Mer-Tonic  19595 posts
Registered: Aug '99
8199_Han Solo
Date Posted: 7/2 6:18pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
So if nobody wanted to be that senator, how did the motion get through the Senate?

They all applauded the motion. Jar-Jar just put a face on it.

That was how liberty died, with thunderous applause.

 

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"...that’s not my job, to make people like my movies. They either like them or they don’t. That’s completely out of my hands.” -Lucas
"At least I will have finished what I set out to do, and at least they will have been good to me." -Lucas
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DarthApocalypse  639 posts
Registered: Apr '07
44297_501st Stormtrooper
Date Posted: 7/2 7:39pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong? - Date Edited: 7/2 7:41pm (1 edits total) Edited By: DarthApocalypse
Nobody wanted to be known as the senator who proposed the motion. They were happy to be a face in the crowd, just not a catalyst. I still fail to see Chewie springing the Ewok trap is anything serious, considering it led to the Ewoks befriending the Rebels. I also don't see the double standard you are claiming.

 

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Go-Mer-Tonic  19595 posts
Registered: Aug '99
8199_Han Solo
Date Posted: 7/2 7:51pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong? - Date Edited: 7/2 7:53pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Go-Mer-Tonic
So when Jar-Jar accidentally takes out battle droids, that's not heroic because it's on accident, but when Chewbacca falls for a basic snare trap it's heroic because in the end the Ewoks helped them?

That's the double standard I'm talking about.

Jar-Jar's motion for emergency powers wouldn't have gone anywhere without the overwhelming support it got from the rest of the Senate.

 

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"...that’s not my job, to make people like my movies. They either like them or they don’t. That’s completely out of my hands.” -Lucas
"At least I will have finished what I set out to do, and at least they will have been good to me." -Lucas
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DarthApocalypse  639 posts
Registered: Apr '07
44297_501st Stormtrooper
Date Posted: 7/2 7:55pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
I didn't say Chewie was heroic for falling into the trap, just that it turned out to be beneficial for the Rebels and thus shouldn't be seen as a serious error. There is no double standard when one character does things on purpose and another on accident.

 

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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon  7522 posts
Registered: Dec '00
17824_Kieran Halcyon
Date Posted: 7/3 12:58am Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
The Chewie/trap bit is one of the worst parts of the OT, and completely out of character for Chewbacca. It's one of about a dozen things that keep RotJ from being a great movie. And almost every one of those things, trap moment included, foreshadows the problems of the PT.

"The Luke/Leia sibling thing was ridiculous enough, but wait until you find out that Darth Vader created C-3PO! Seeing Chewie depicted as a big dumb oaf in that one scene? Wait until you meet Jar-Jar, who actually IS a big oaf! EVERY scene he's in will be like that bit with the trap!"

I won't defend the trap gag, because it is one of the weakest moments in the trilogy. All I'll say is that it pales next to Jar-Jar, whose scenes are almost entirely comprised of variations on the trap gag.

 

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darth-sinister  43577 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Jun '01
24181_Palpatine Hologram
Date Posted: 7/3 12:03pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
DarthApocalypse posted:
darth-sinister posted:
Being a hero isn't so much about bravery, but about the actions you take. You could be scared out of your mind, but still do something that winds up being heroic.


Unless of course you weren't intending to do anything at all, and you benefit from a stroke of luck.


It depends on who sees it and what they deem as heroic or just plain luck.

DarthApocalypse posted:
darth-sinister posted:
Jar Jar is clumsy, but he did try to do heroic things on purpose twice in TPM. First time was when Jar Jar was on the barrel of the hover tank and Tarpals tried to get him to use the Booma, Jar Jar had intended to use it to stop the tank. Granted, his clumsy attempts to catch it resulted in some hi-jinks, but in the end, he got to disable the tank.


Disabling one battle droid =/= disabling the whole tank. I don't even see how a poobaa that small was going to take out the tank anyway.


Stick it in the barrel, barrel go boom. Stick it inside the tank, tank go boom on the inside. Then we have what Jar Jar did.

DarthApocalypse posted:
darth-sinister posted:
Later, when he realized that his tangled foot could be used as a weapon, he intentionally caused the fallen Battle Droid to fire on other Battle Droids. And yes, he surrendered when told to, because he knew that they couldn't fight all of them. He wasn't a warrior like Tarpals and Ceel. He didn't even want to be given a military rank.



That's not true. He was diving all over the place trying to get the droid off, not intentionally using it as a weapon.


One has to dive in order to avoid being shot in the head.

DarthApocalypse posted:
[quote=darth-sinister]
And what was he supposed to do? Stand there and be run over by the giant Boomas? What about Indiana Jones and the giant boulder? Jar Jar ran because he knew that he was going to be hurt by the Boomas if he didn't.


Run to the side, then up.[/quote]

No guarantee that they wouldn't spread out left and right, when Jar Jar would go to run.

DarthApocalypse posted:
[quote=darth-sinister]OBI-WAN: "In my experience, there's no such thing as luck."

QUI-GON: "Our meeting was not a coincidence. Nothing happens by accident."

Jar Jar may have been a clumsy fool, but what he pulled off was not luck. It was the will of the Force.


Sorry, but I don't buy that every little thing that happens is the will of the Force. A clumsy fool is a clumsy fool. And your interpretation just makes Jar-Jar look worse. How can he have a noble purpose if he's just acting on the Force's orders?[/quote]

His noble purpose was already taken care of, by becoming friends with Padme. Thereby uniting two different races under one common cause. The fight against the Droid Army was just a distraction to get much of the Droid Army away from Theed. The Gungans knew they weren't going to be winning that fight.

As to everything that happens and the Force, why not? Who is to say that everything we do wasn't part of some divine plan?

DarthApocalypse posted:
[quote=darth-sinister]His clumsy ways helped out. But he is heroic because he fought in the battle. Being heroic doesn't mean that he has to be Jedi like. Being heroic means that doing something noble without thought of reward or of one's self.


Saving his own ass is doing something for himself. You act as if Jar-Jar wouldn't being benefiting from a Gungan victory.[/quote]

Everyone benefited, not just Jar Jar. That's why I said that Jar Jar doesn't have to be Jedi like. I don't mean just how a Jedi approaches a battle. I meant that Jar Jar didn't run away in cowardiace. He went out into the field of battle, even though he didn't want to be out there. He still made an effort to help. That counts for something.

[quote=darth-sinister]Heroic or heroism, is based on actions. Not luck.[/quote]

Which is why Jar-Jar is not a hero. Would you think Vader was redeemed if instead of intentionally throwing Palpatine down the reactor shaft, he trips over his cape and accidentally pushes him in?
[/quote][/quote]

Only if Vader was good again right before he tripped and fell into Palpatine.

[quote=DarthApocalypse]I didn't say Chewie was heroic for falling into the trap, just that it turned out to be beneficial for the Rebels and thus shouldn't be seen as a serious error.[/quote]

And it is no less with Jar Jar, who got tangled up in Qui-gon when he was running away. This lead to Jar Jar befriending Padme and both Gungan and Naboo seeing that they were the same, despite being of a different species. This lead to the unification on Naboo and the victory the followed. Lucas' commentary is clear. You can find allies in the unlikeiest of places.

 

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