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Author	Topic: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
venepe Registered: Feb '04	Date Posted: 7/3 12:05pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	Well this discussion is going nowhere. We have all expressed our reason on "what went wrong" and some suggest that nothing went wrong at all. The level of dislike for the character suggest that indeed something went wrong, but as pointed by some, maybe is the audience itself that fails to learn the purpose of the character. At this point minds are not going to change. We'll leave it to Lucas to decide. -----signature----- Triumph: "I don't regret picking on the Star Wars nerds but you have to feel a little sorry for them. I hope George Lucas CGIs them some girlfriends."
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Go-Mer-Tonic Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 7/3 12:08pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	You feel free to close your mind, I'll hold down the fort for the open minded. -----signature----- "...that’s not my job, to make people like my movies. They either like them or they don’t. That’s completely out of my hands.” -Lucas "At least I will have finished what I set out to do, and at least they will have been good to me." -Lucas
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DarthApocalypse Registered: Apr '07	Date Posted: 7/3 12:31pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	darth-sinister posted: It depends on who sees it and what they deem as heroic or just plain luck. If someone does something by accident, then it is obviously luck. Or if they are taking orders from a deity as you claim, they aren't doing anything all, but are acting as a puppet for a higher power. darth-sinister posted: Stick it in the barrel, barrel go boom. Stick it inside the tank, tank go boom on the inside. Then we have what Jar Jar did. I doubt Jar-Jar is adept enough to wriggle up the barrel and stick the poobaa in. He was too scared to do anything but hang there. He wouldn't even jump when he was told to, Tarpals had to pull him off. So I doubt Jar-jar could take the course of action you suggested. darth-sinister posted: One has to dive in order to avoid being shot in the head. And...? How does this change what I said? Jar-Jar was diving all over the place and by accident the droid attached to his foot got him some lucky kills. The fact you admit that Jar-Jar wasn't thinking about the droid but more concerned with dodging blasterfire strengthens my argument. darth-sinister posted: No guarantee that they wouldn't spread out left and right, when Jar Jar would go to run. True, but by running to the side then up, Jar-Jar puts more distance between himself and the droid army. Also only the poobaas on the ends would spread out like that. Most would remain in the middle. darth-sinister posted: His noble purpose was already taken care of, by becoming friends with Padme. Thereby uniting two different races under one common cause. Ridiculous. Making friends is a noble act now? That means basically every person on Earth is noble. In addition Jar-Jar didn't unite the two races, Padme did. It was her speech and her getting everyone to bow before Boss Nass that cemented the alliance, not Jar-Jar. darth-sinister posted: The fight against the Droid Army was just a distraction to get much of the Droid Army away from Theed. The Gungans knew they weren't going to be winning that fight. I know. How is this relevant? darth-sinister posted: As to everything that happens and the Force, why not? Who is to say that everything we do wasn't part of some divine plan? Since you didn't answer me the first time I'll ask again. If Jar-Jar is simply following a divine plan that has already been mapped for him how can he be a hero? If Jar-Jar's life is preordained, then he is neither brave, noble or heroic. he's simply following the Force's orders. darth-sinister posted: Everyone benefited, not just Jar Jar. I know. That doesn't change the fact that it benefits Jar-Jar not to get shot and it wouldn't benefit him for the Gungans to lose. darth-sinister posted: That's why I said that Jar Jar doesn't have to be Jedi like. I don't mean just how a Jedi approaches a battle. I meant that Jar Jar didn't run away in cowardiace. He went out into the field of battle, even though he didn't want to be out there. He still made an effort to help. That counts for something. Not if the choice wasn't his, but the Force's. According to you, he had no choice but to fight, the decision was already made for him. [quote=darth-sinister]Only if Vader was good again right before he tripped and fell into Palpatine. [/quote] And how would you know whether or not he's good if his tripping was an accident? Accidents are neither bad or good. [quote=darth-sinister]And it is no less with Jar Jar, who got tangled up in Qui-gon when he was running away.[/quote] That's not what happened. Qui-Gon deliberately ran to Jar-Jar and threw him down so he wouldn't get run over. [quote=darth-sinister]This lead to Jar Jar befriending Padme and both Gungan and Naboo seeing that they were the same, despite being of a different species. This lead to the unification on Naboo and the victory the followed. [/quote] As I said earlier, Padme's speech did that, not Jar-Jar becoming friends with Padme. [quote=darth-sinister]Lucas' commentary is clear. You can find allies in the unlikeiest of places.[/quote] Ally =/= hero. -----signature----- Don't take life too seriously. Nobody gets out alive.
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darth-sinister Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 7/3 1:18pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	DarthApocalypse posted: If someone does something by accident, then it is obviously luck. Or if they are taking orders from a deity as you claim, they aren't doing anything all, but are acting as a puppet for a higher power. Everyone is controlled by the Force. Their destiny is laid out for them. They can choose to be an active participant or an inactive one. But sooner or later, it will find them. Jar Jar's accidents benefited the Force and all of the Gungans during the battle. Here, he is the hero because he entered the battle willingly and stayed involved, regardless of the actions he took. DarthApocalypse posted: I doubt Jar-Jar is adept enough to wriggle up the barrel and stick the poobaa in. He was too scared to do anything but hang there. He wouldn't even jump when he was told to, Tarpals had to pull him off. So I doubt Jar-jar could take the course of action you suggested. Tarpals believed otherwise when he told him to use the Poobaa. That's why he said to use one. DarthApocalypse posted: And...? How does this change what I said? Jar-Jar was diving all over the place and by accident the droid attached to his foot got him some lucky kills. The fact you admit that Jar-Jar wasn't thinking about the droid but more concerned with dodging blasterfire strengthens my argument. I didn't say that Jar Jar wasn't thinking about the droid. I said that he had to duck when it went off. Otherwise he'd be the biggest idiot getting himself shot without bothering to duck. He had to dive in order to avoid getting shot by his own weapon. He doesn't scream and cry when this is happening. He doesn't try to flee from the battle. That makes him heroic, regardless of it being accidential or not. DarthApocalypse posted: True, but by running to the side then up, Jar-Jar puts more distance between himself and the droid army. Also only the poobaas on the ends would spread out like that. Most would remain in the middle. That's my point. Jar Jar went with his first reaction, which was to run. He's not a warrior. He never fought in a battle. He's not trained to be in the Gungan Army. What he is is a Gungan who acted on instinct. DarthApocalypse posted: Ridiculous. Making friends is a noble act now? That means basically every person on Earth is noble. In addition Jar-Jar didn't unite the two races, Padme did. It was her speech and her getting everyone to bow before Boss Nass that cemented the alliance, not Jar-Jar. Padme wouldn't have considered the Gungan Army if she was not friends with a Gungan. The Gungans and the Naboo were not friends, nor did they care what happened to each other. But Jar Jar changed that when he introduced himself to Padme, befriending her. This then led to their conversation and ultimately, Boss Nass considers what Jar Jar did as being the reason the Gungans and the Naboo are allies. That he paved the way for it to happen, regardless of what Padme said. BOSS NASS: "Yousa doen grand. Jar Jar bringen da Naboo together." JAR JAR: "Oh, no, no, no..." BOSS NASS: "So, wesa maken yousa Bombad General." DarthApocalypse posted: I know. How is this relevant? Because it didn't matter what Jar Jar was going to do ultimately, he and the others had to provide the distraction. It's just that along the way, he helped his people as best he could. DarthApocalypse posted: Since you didn't answer me the first time I'll ask again. If Jar-Jar is simply following a divine plan that has already been mapped for him how can he be a hero? If Jar-Jar's life is preordained, then he is neither brave, noble or heroic. he's simply following the Force's orders. So is everyone else. That doesn't make any of them any less of a hero. Be it Anakin, who was destined to the destroy the Sith, or Han Solo who comes back to blast the TIE Fighters and give Luke his clear shot. It's choosing to take part that is what makes them heroes, more than how they achieve that hero status. DarthApocalypse posted: Not if the choice wasn't his, but the Force's. According to you, he had no choice but to fight, the decision was already made for him. No, that's not what I said. I said that the destiny was laid out for Jar Jar, long ago. He just had to choose to follow through when the time came. He made his choice by going out there and confronting his destiny, even if he wasn't aware of it. He chose to fight, which made him heroic. DarthApocalypse posted: And how would you know whether or not he's good if his tripping was an accident? Accidents are neither bad or good. No, they are not. However, like I said, if he chose to stop being evil before he tripped, then he is redeemed. Regardless of what he does next, the moment before that happens, if he has not made a decision to stop being good or evil, that is what matters more. Anakin was already good before he reached out to pick up Palpatine. If he tripped and fell is irrelevant. He had already made the choice before then. If he tripped right when he stood up as Palpatine began blasting Luke, then he isn't redeemed since he hasn't made his choice yet. [quote=DarthApocalypse]That's not what happened. Qui-Gon deliberately ran to Jar-Jar and threw him down so he wouldn't get run over.[/quote] No, Qui-gon told Jar Jar to get out of his way. Jar Jar jumped on him and Qui-gon knocked him down, so that they wouldn't get hit. I just checked both the film and the script. Jar Jar is stunned by the sight of the MTT coming at him. Qui-gon also tells Jar Jar to let go. [quote=DarthApocalypse]As I said earlier, Padme's speech did that, not Jar-Jar becoming friends with Padme.[/quote] Which happened because Jar Jar befriended her and brought them together. [quote=darth-sinister]Lucas' commentary is clear. You can find allies in the unlikeiest of places.[/quote] Ally =/= hero. [/quote] And that is what Jar Jar is when he goes out to take part in the battle. -----signature----- Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge." Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side. Something, something, something complete."
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Strilo Title: Manager: • Music • Prequel Trilogy Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 7/3 2:06pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong? - Date Edited: 7/3 2:09pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Strilo
	Guys please... try to avoid extremely long line-by-line responses to another user's post. Try to reply to their entire post, not break it down sentence by sentence. You can see how this becomes really difficult to read especially when the quotes stop working right and we get broken markup codes in there. And more often than not, it kills the discussion in a thread because people give up reading such replies and move on. -----signature----- #1 on iTunes Most Played: The Killers "Human" #1 on iTunes Most Played Scores: Fellowship of the Ring "Bilbo's Ring" ---------- They will not force us. They will stop degrading us. They will not control us. We will be victorious.
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Cryogenic Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 7/3 2:19pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	Go-Mer-Tonic posted: You feel free to close your mind, I'll hold down the fort for the open minded. Keep holding down that fort, Go-Mer. -----signature----- I have a great admiration for George. These films are very well-intentioned. All right, they make tremendous amounts of money and appeal to kids, but they say good things, and they say them in a broad way. I believe in the Star Wars films. - Ian McDiarmid
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DarthApocalypse Registered: Apr '07	Date Posted: 7/4 11:48am Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong? - Date Edited: 7/4 11:50am (1 edits total) Edited By: Strilo
	Strilo edit: I said no. -----signature----- Don't take life too seriously. Nobody gets out alive.
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DarthApocalypse Registered: Apr '07	Date Posted: 7/4 12:51pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong? - Date Edited: 7/4 12:52pm (1 edits total) Edited By: DarthApocalypse
	To darth-sinister Regarding Jar-Jar bringing the Gungans & Naboo together: It's ridiculous to give Jar-Jar credit for that. He became friends with Padme because he was a lonely outcast who wanted friends and someone to take care of him. He wasn't acting as an inter-species ambassador. I don't understand how you consider making friends a heroic action. It's like saying a black guy is a hero for making friends with a white guy. Regarding Qui-Gon saving Jar-Jar: Qui-Gon clearly ran towards Jar-Jar and told him to get down. Then he forced him onto the ground. He didn't tell him to get out of the way. Regarding destiny and the Force: Sorry, but I don't believe that people are slaves to their destiny and that it will find them eventually. People shape their own destiny. I can't see how anyone can be a hero using your reasoning, because I don't consider acting as a vessel for a deity heroic. Regarding Vader: That doesn't make any sense. According to your logic. Vader could decide to be good, but never do anything and he would be redeemed simply because he said he was. Actions speak louder than words. -----signature----- Don't take life too seriously. Nobody gets out alive.
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darth-sinister Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 7/4 2:20pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong? - Date Edited: 7/4 2:21pm (1 edits total) Edited By: darth-sinister
	1. No, Jar Jar isn't acting as an ambassador. But for the first time in many years, centuries it seems, Jar Jar was the first Gungan to befriend one of the Naboo. For the Gungans, this is a big deal because their newfound relationship allowed the two sides to see the truth of each other. That the two of them had a stake in the fate of their people. That neither side saw the other as more important. Padme would have never considered allying the Naboo with the Gungans to take down the Droid Army, had it not been for Jar Jar's friendship. As to the racial comment, it was a big deal like that over fifty years ago, when racial tensions were much higher than they are today. So there would be a hero comparrison, in that he helped to unite the two races. And Boss Nass did consider Jar Jar a man of great importance for what he did. That's why he made him a general. 2. Qui-gon was running from the MTT. Jar Jar was standing in the road, transfixed by what he saw. And yes, Qui-gon told Jar Jar to get out of the way. Rewatch the film. Jar Jar jumps at Qui-gon when he got close, out of fear. Qui-gon yells at Jar Jar to let go, before grabbing Jar Jar and forcing him to the ground. 3. You can disbelieve it all you want, but that is the story of Star Wars. Lucas said it about ANH, long ago and has repeated it in the years since. "The overriding philosophy in Episode I—and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter—is the balance between good and evil. The Force itself breaks into two sides: the living Force and a greater, cosmic Force. The living Force makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people's minds, etc. But the greater Force has to do with destiny. In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can choose to either follow it or not." --George Lucas, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999 "It's about a young boy leaving his world and going off into the unknown, to a great adventure. [...] Star Wars, carries that story on to what happens after you leave and in this particular case, there's a slightly more classic edge to it, in that the fates are there to kind of help Luke realize that, in certain cases you don't have choices. You know, if you choose not to fight evil, eventually it'll just push you up into the wall and you just don't have a choice. It's an inevitability that you can't escape from. And in this particular case, he torn between what he really wants to do; which is go off and join the academy and fight for the Rebellion and have excitement; but then he's also committed to helping his uncle, and to help his uncle build his farm, and his uncle's raised him, he's like his father, and he has his obligations to help put the homestead together. It's very clear from the beginning here that Luke's fate, even when the aunt and uncle are talking, is not to stay on the farm. A future that's just not in him. His destiny lies in a grander scheme of things. Even they know that. I mean they know it for other reasons that we don't know about yet." --George Lucas, ANH DVD Commentary. Anakin was a slave to his destiny and he ultimately has to fulfill it, which he does in ROTJ. He runs from it for 24 years when he becomes Vader, but in the end, he does what he was born to do. It is why he existed. Luke tried to run from his destiny, which is to confront his father a second time and do battle with him. When he arrives at Endor and finds Vader waiting for him, he realizes that he can no longer run from his destiny and goes off to confront his father. The difference between the Jedi and the Sith and the normal people, is that the latter have no idea that their destinies are. 4. No, that's what it takes for other people to believe in redemption. That's actively working to prove yourself to others and to yourself. Redemption also centers around coming back from a state of decline, which Vader does. He becomes a good person again. That's why Lucas said that Anakin is not redeemed for his crimes, because he cannot do that. He dies right after killing Palpatine. Luke can redeem his father's good name, by restoring the Jedi Order and destroying the Imperial Remmants (sp). But Anakin is only redeemed by becoming a good and compassionate man again. Killing Palpatine was the only way to do that, which in turns allows him to fulfill his destiny. In your scenario, Anakin can accidently kill Palpatine, but that alone will not redeem him. Redeeming himself comes from giving up the evil before or afterwards. Not the act itself. -----signature----- Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge." Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side. Something, something, something complete."
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DarthApocalypse Registered: Apr '07	Date Posted: 7/5 1:17pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong? - Date Edited: 7/5 1:23pm (2 edits total) Edited By: DarthApocalypse
	1. If Jar-Jar simply being friends with Padme was enough to bring the races together, them when did Boss Nass not instantly give his services when he saw their friendship? Why did Padme have to make that speech if knowing Jar-Jar was enough? Because simply knowing a Gungan was no guarantee the races would be brought together, just like a black and white guy being friends is no guarantee that racism will end. Yes, Jar-Jar's friendship with Padme probably helped to further the goal. No Jar-Jar should not get credit for it because it was Padme who cemented the alliance. The fact that the droids ran the Gungans out of their homes also contributed to the truce. Again, what you consider heroic appears to be very mundane. I don't see how not being a racist makes you a hero, in the GFFA or reality. 2. I just rewatched the scene. Jar-Jar was stationary, paralyzed by fear, then Qui-Gon clearly runs towards him (deliberately) and tells him to get down. When he doesn't Qui-Gon forces him down. Jar-Jar does not jump on Qui-Gon, as he is standing still. If Qui-Gon wasn't purposefully attempting to save Jar-Jar, then why did he run straight at him? 3. For the purposes of this argument, I guess I have no choice but to accept Lucas's words. However when I watch the movies personally that's not how I will interpret them, mainly because of the quote you highlighted. If you don't have a choice and inevitably have to fight evil then no one is a hero, because they're all being compelled by the Force to act against their will. In my mind that makes the whole Saga not about the people volunteering to be heroic, but a meaningless farce, as everyone is being involuntarily pushed against the wall. Luke didn't really want to save Leia, he did because the Force would have made him eventually. Han didn't like Luke, but the Force complained until he helped him. Vader still desired to be with Palpatine, but he got tired of the Force nagging him, so he decided to throw him down the shaft. Every decision is now meaningless. 4a. I'm confused. Before you said if Vader decided to be good again he would be redeemed. Now your saying that it's impossible for him to be redeemed for his crimes. Which is it? 4b. You just proved my point, that the act itself doesn't matter, but the intent behind it. This is why I can't understand how you can say Jar-Jar is a hero if most of what he does is unintended. Jar-Jar did not plan to bring the Gungans and Naboo together, nor he intentionally provide any help for the protagonists. -----signature----- Don't take life too seriously. Nobody gets out alive.
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darth-sinister Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 7/6 2:11pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	1. Padme may have been the one to make the impassioned speech, but she would never have done it if not for Jar Jar becoming friends with her. It takes two to tango, as the saying goes. Padme would not have been able to pull of what she did without the Gungans help. And one Gungan in particular is Jar Jar Binks. That is why Nass made him a Bombad General and it is why he became the Gungan representative in the Senate. And if you cannot see how being a racist, in a time of racism doesn't make you a hero, then more's the pity. 2. Qui-gon ran at him because he was being chased by the MTT. I've watched the scene as well. Qui-gon was not there to save Jar Jar, but running for his life. Jar Jar was in the way. Qui-gon only purposely saves Jar Jar when the two of them go down. That's why Qui-gon is yelling get out of the way and then get off of him. 3. That's how it has been. Luke refuses to go to Alderaan because of his responsibility to the Lars. Then they are killed by the Stormtroopers and thus Luke has no reason to stay on Tatooine, as he tells Obi-wan. If Han had not been boarded by an Imperial ship, he would never have gotten in debt to Jabba and thus need to take Luke and Obi-wan to Alderaan. Leia was on her way to Tatooine to get Obi-wan, which would've lead to her being trained as a Jedi. But because she is captured, the droids find Luke and he is then brought to Obi-wan. Remember, Yoda told Obi-wan and Bail that until the time was right, they would have to wait. The time was right 20 years later. The prophecy was right. Anakin was the Chosen One. It didn't specify that he had to be a Jedi in order to fulfill his destiny. They all make the conscious choice to do what they do and be who they are meant to be. Only the Jedi and Sith are aware of their destiny, but the Sith choose to try and control fate. The Jedi try to listen to it and follow it. Anakin doesn't listen to the Force and thus makes the mistakes that result in his becoming Vader. Only when he confronts Luke, does he start to listen again. 4 A. Lucas says that Anakin can never be redeemed for what he did. He can become a good man again, but he can never spend the rest of his life making up for his sins. Luke can do that and he does. Redemption has more than one meaning. It can be making up for your sins, but it can also mean returning to a previous good nature in the eyes of another. In this case, Anakin becomes the good man that Luke believed him to be. 4 B. Jar Jar's friendship was intentional, but it had ramifications that he was unaware of until after all was said and done. Yes. But because he intentionally tried to make friends with a Naboo, he became a hero to his people and to the Naboo. And with the battle, he intended to fight once he woke up from his fainting spell. Regardless of his actions during the battle, he still made a heroic effort to put his life on the line to save his people and his friends. -----signature----- Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge." Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side. Something, something, something complete."
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DarthApocalypse Registered: Apr '07	Date Posted: 7/6 9:22pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	1. Again, the fact that Padme was friends with Jar-Jar probably was a factor in the Gungan-Naboo alliance. However Padme's negotiations and the fact the droid army kicked the Gungans out of their homes was just as important, if not more so. I doubt that the Gungans would have helped the Naboo if they were unaffected by the droid army's occupation. In short, Jar-Jar should not be credited for something he a) did not plan for and b) had no idea was going to transpire. Again, Jar-Jar's friendship by itself was no guarantee of anything, just like Anakin knowing a Tusken Raider Jedi is no guarantee that he will begin to like the Sand People. Other steps had to be taken. Padme took those steps and she did it deliberately, which is why she should be credited for it. As to your last point, don't have pity for me. I feel remorse for that fact that you think not being a racist is heroic. Risking your life to fight for equality and working to eliminate racism are heroic qualities. Simply not judging somone by their species or skin is not. Do you also think that person who treat homosexuals equally and don't make fun of fat people are heroes too? Am I a hero because I don't think all Muslims are terrorists? I would say no but it appears you would say yes. 2. I never said Qui-Gon was there for the purpose of saving Jar-Jar, simply that once he saw him transfixed by fear, he knew that he couldn't stand by and let him get run over. Qui-Gon was looking directly at Jar-Jar and ran straight towards him. If he was trying to avoid Jar-Jar it makes no sense to run right up to him, when there is plenty of space for him to go around. 3. I concede the point about destiny, but still maintain under your argument no one is a hero. Anakin is not heroic for destroying the Sith if the Force makes him do it. Neither is anyone else in the Saga, Jar-Jar included. Being compelled by a deity to act is not admirable at all. 4a. Ok. 4b. See number 1. It makes no sense to give Jar-Jar credit over Padme, when Padme was intentionally trying to bring the two races together, while Jar-Jar simply wanted someone to take care of him. -----signature----- Don't take life too seriously. Nobody gets out alive.
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darth-sinister Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 7/7 2:03pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	1. It was the factor that the two of them were friends. Jar Jar saw that the Naboo weren't high and mighty, as many Gungans believed that they were. And from Padme's point of view, the Gungans were not primitives living underwater. Or whatever the Naboo thought of them. The Gungans would not ally themselves with the Naboo, to overthrow the Droid Armies. Eventually Padme would be forced to sign the treaty and the Gungans would also be affected by the Trade Federation's demands. No, there are no guarantees in life. There are only possibilities. However, the Gungans were not savages like the Tusken Raiders. Which worked out in their favor. The Gungans, that is. In the end, while Padme has credit, Jar Jar shares it with her. For it begins with him as much as it does her. And as to race and sexual orientation, being heroic is not about going out and risking your life. It's about among other things, showing courage. And not just courage as in fighting in battles. But courage for standing up for your beliefs and convictions. For having noble qualities. If all you equate with heroism is battles, then you miss out on the other aspects of the word. The other meanings. 2. There are beasts all around him. Some of them in cut in front of Qui-gon. Jar Jar was the only one who wasn't a beast, who could move. That's why he yells at him to move. When Jar Jar failed to move except to get up in his face, Qui-gon kept running before going down. 3. They're still heroes. They have to choose to follow their destiny when it is laid out before them. It's like Leia said to Luke. LEIA: "He's got to follow his own path. No one can choose it for him." The Force lays out the destiny before the individual. But they must still make the choices that determine their lives. 4. He didn't want someone to take care of him. He wanted to have a friend. He's friendly to all people. Qui-gon, Obi-wan, Artoo, Padme, Anakin and Shmi. It is this friendly nature that sets the ball rolling. -----signature----- Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge." Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side. Something, something, something complete."
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DarthApocalypse Registered: Apr '07	Date Posted: 7/7 8:35pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	1. As I already stated, Jar-Jar thought the friendship was just that, a friendship. He didn't think it would be a act that brought two races together. He wasn't making a courageous stand on equality. He even says himself that he didn't intend to meet Padme, but that events spiraled out of his control. So how can it be a heroic action? Jar-Jar wasn't standing up for any convictions when he befriended Padme. He didn't intentionally go looking for a Naboo in order to unite the two groups. Also your claim that their are no guarantees is wrong. Your own quote makes it clear that if you don't follow the designated path you will be forced into it. Which means that Gungans would have come together with the Naboo whether Jar-Jar was there or not. 2. The beasts are running much faster than Qui-Gon and are out in front of him, not on the sides. In addition Qui-Gon could have have easily dropped on the ground without bringing Jar-Jar down with him. Finally Jar-Jar did not jump onto Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon tackled him. 3. Lucas: In certain cases you don't have choices. You know, if you choose not to fight evil, eventually it'll just push you up into the wall and you just don't have a choice. It's an inevitability that you can't escape from. Your own quote says the characters don't have choices, the Force will make them act whether they want to or not. 4. Whether or not Jar-Jar wants someone to take care of him, or is a naturally friendly person, the fact remains that the friendship was not the result of some stand on equality. Jar-Jar was not standing up for anything. Under your own definition he can't be heroic. -----signature----- Don't take life too seriously. Nobody gets out alive.
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Quixotic-Sith Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 7/7 8:53pm Subject: Jar-Jar Binks: what went wrong?
	I never liked Jar Jar as he was presented in the films. He seemed completely unnecessary, and the thematic moments he had could have been done with other characters (for instance, Padme actually brings the two societies together, Jar Jar just gets them to the right place), or could have been done in a manner less goofy. Some of you may have seen the Phantom Re-Edit (TPRE, done by some folks in New York, not TPE (The Phantom Edit), which was done by a blowhard in California) - Jar Jar's baby pidgin is replaced by an alien language (as are the Nemoidians) and his dialogue is dubbed. The pratfalling and other unnecessary bits of "humor" are removed, turning him into a much more respectable character. He can still be an outcast, but for better reasons than being "clumsy". -----signature----- Defense wins championships. "The professors are the enemy. Professors are the enemy! Write that on a blackboard 100 times and never forget it." - Nixon
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