Author Topic: The Prequels -- Obi-Wan's Trilogy
Hernalt  154 posts
Registered: Jun '00
Date Posted: 7/14 12:52am Subject: The Prequels -- Obi-Wan's Trilogy
With great power _should_ come great responsibility. Jedi have access to, for lack of better words, zero point energy. Such demigods require a concrete shell of containment so they don't zap mere mortals kneeling outside the demi-pantheon. Attachment is one breach of containment, and as of the end of AOTC, Kenobi was looking the other way. Was it loyalty to Qui-Gon or a certain confidence in himself that he could handle the prize bull? Kenobi apparently had great confidence that Anakin could handle playing with fire, and if Anakin prevailed through an indiscretion but achieved his great calling, Kenobi would look the wiser. But Anakin's containment failed and he had a meltdown. Considering the energy transfer rate (power) available to a Force-sensitive person that elected to learn some of Sidious' tricks, I find the word "failure" apt for Kenobi.

How would Qui-Gon have reacted / dealt with a Padawan Kenobi having a fling with a Senator? I hesitate to think that Qui-Gon would tell his young Padawan, 'Well, you will do what you must.'

This now occurs to me: In light of the prequels and Mustafar, Vader in the original trilogy has no fleshly fingers, hands, or arms. So his Force choke is entirely mechanical. It becomes plausible that Sidious' Force lightning requires fleshly fingers to direct, and that Vader could not do it himself since he has lost his hands. Can any lightning be shed on this?

 

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Jovieve  2296 posts
Registered: May '02
18921_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 7/14 10:09am Subject: The Prequels -- Obi-Wan's Trilogy - Date Edited: 7/14 10:10am (1 edits total) Edited By: Jovieve
Hernalt posted:
With great power _should_ come great responsibility. Jedi have access to, for lack of better words, zero point energy. Such demigods require a concrete shell of containment so they don't zap mere mortals kneeling outside the demi-pantheon. Attachment is one breach of containment, and as of the end of AOTC, Kenobi was looking the other way. Was it loyalty to Qui-Gon or a certain confidence in himself that he could handle the prize bull? Kenobi apparently had great confidence that Anakin could handle playing with fire, and if Anakin prevailed through an indiscretion but achieved his great calling, Kenobi would look the wiser. But Anakin's containment failed and he had a meltdown. Considering the energy transfer rate (power) available to a Force-sensitive person that elected to learn some of Sidious' tricks, I find the word "failure" apt for Kenobi.


The fact is that Kenobi planned on training Anakin because he promised Qui-Gon that he would - not because he himself believed the prophecy or that he thought Anakin worthy. He didn't. Indeed in TPM, he comes out and says not only that Anakin is too old but that he senses the boy is dangerous. As to whether he thought himself capable of training a padawan, Qui-Gon certainly thought he could.

Now whether Obi-Wan thought Anakin could handle fire is another matter. It's clear in AotC that he doesn't, that Anakin is too arrogant and basically needs to be knocked down several pegs, but things are at the point - as far as the Council is concerned - that if Anakin is the so-called Chosen One, he needs to start proving it.

Hernalt posted:
How would Qui-Gon have reacted / dealt with a Padawan Kenobi having a fling with a Senator? I hesitate to think that Qui-Gon would tell his young Padawan, 'Well, you will do what you must.'


Had he known, you mean? Did Obi-Wan know of Anakin's affair/marriage with Padme? Would Qui-Gon have known?


Hernalt posted:
This now occurs to me: In light of the prequels and Mustafar, Vader in the original trilogy has no fleshly fingers, hands, or arms. So his Force choke is entirely mechanical. It becomes plausible that Sidious' Force lightning requires fleshly fingers to direct, and that Vader could not do it himself since he has lost his hands. Can any lightning be shed on this?


According to the Scholastic book of RotS, Sidious is disappointed at Anakin's maiming because he will never be able to wield Force lightning because he does need organic limbs to do so.

 

-----signature-----
"Are there Sith on this planet, Master Kenobi? Are they coming for us now? Should we - I don't know - run?"
"Run?" he echoed. "Run where, do you suggest?"
"I don't know! Away?"
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CaptainGiladPellaeon  57 posts
Registered: Jun '09
7434_Gilad Pellaeon
Date Posted: 7/14 1:03pm Subject: The Prequels -- Obi-Wan's Trilogy
In the movies, there's no direct evidence that Obi-Wan knows about Anakin's affair with Padme until he confronts Padme about Anakin in her apartment, near the end of ROTS, and says, "Anakin is the father, isn't he?." Obi-Wan probably suspects something is going on between Anakin and Padme earlier, I think, just because anybody around them both as much as he is probably couldn't miss it, but he might not realize that Anakin and Padme are acting on their pretty obvious feelings for each other, and even if he does know more, what can he do? Throughout AOTC, Anakin hasn't even done anything yet, apart from having feelings for Padme, and in ROTS, Anakin is a knight, so he's no longer Obi-Wan's direct responsibility.

The EU, of course, tells its own story about Obi-Wan's knowledge. In the novel Dark Rendevous, Obi-Wan knows that Anakin is having an affair with someone and tries to counsel him against such actions.

 

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Whatever slippery ground exists here is beneath your feet. – Admiral Gilad Pellaeon (Vision of the Future)
I question all that is not yet familiar to me. – Grand Admiral Thrawn (Heir to the Empire)
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xx_Anakin_xx  1824 posts
Registered: Jan '08
45272_Cade Skywalker
Date Posted: 7/14 2:08pm Subject: The Prequels -- Obi-Wan's Trilogy
Yes but in all of the analysis we are still left with the big question: What did Anakin return to in ROTJ? What principles, compassion, ideologies, etc., did he turn to in his head to base any distinction between what he and Palpatine represented and what Luke represented? If he'd lost all capability for compassion, he'd have none towards Luke, his son, who he desired to save. He'd not be able to make the statement: "you were right, tell your sister...". Right about what? There was still good in him - what good? I'll tell you - it was the good of 23 years before and the time prior to that when he was trained under Obi-Wan, who passed on values, morals, ideals, etc., to Anakin. That was still all there, if buried deep inside and that is all he had to draw on in his last minute redemption in ROTJ. So I don't see Obi-Wan as a complete failure in terms of Anakin. He helped to build the character of a lad that gave him something to fall back on in his ultimate decision to do the right thing, for a compassionate purpose, imo.

 

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DRush76  447 posts
Registered: Jan '08
14816_Qui-Gon Jinn
Date Posted: 7/23 11:22am Subject: The Prequels -- Obi-Wan's Trilogy
xx_Anakin_xx posted:
Yes but in all of the analysis we are still left with the big question: What did Anakin return to in ROTJ? What principles, compassion, ideologies, etc., did he turn to in his head to base any distinction between what he and Palpatine represented and what Luke represented? If he'd lost all capability for compassion, he'd have none towards Luke, his son, who he desired to save. He'd not be able to make the statement: "you were right, tell your sister...". Right about what? There was still good in him - what good? I'll tell you - it was the good of 23 years before and the time prior to that when he was trained under Obi-Wan, who passed on values, morals, ideals, etc., to Anakin. That was still all there, if buried deep inside and that is all he had to draw on in his last minute redemption in ROTJ. So I don't see Obi-Wan as a complete failure in terms of Anakin. He helped to build the character of a lad that gave him something to fall back on in his ultimate decision to do the right thing, for a compassionate purpose, imo.



Obi-Wan wasn't mainly responsible for Anakin's high ideals, morals, etc. Anakin already possessed those traits before he even met Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan. In fact, Shmi seemed to hint in her conversation with Qui-Gon that those traits seemed to be part of Anakin's personality in the beginning.

 

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jc1138  64 posts
Registered: Nov '04
23046_TIEs Vader and Guard
Date Posted: 7/30 8:17pm Subject: The Prequels -- Obi-Wan's Trilogy
Good point about Shmi, DRush76.

If I were Obi-Wan, and my friend and protege did what Anakin did, I would feel that I had failed in not helping them through their difficulties. If I were Obi-Wan I would feel that I should have fostered a relationship wherein he Anakin could have come to me with what was going on and that I would have helped him through it instead of putting him off with lectures and rules.
Perhaps Obi-Wan believes that he failed Anakin because of his pride in being a teacher. Maybe Obi-Wan thought that he was doing the right thing by lecturing Anakin so much. There is that I believe very telling line: "I thought that I could train him as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

 

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Jovieve  2296 posts
Registered: May '02
18921_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 8/16 3:50pm Subject: The Prequels -- Obi-Wan's Trilogy - Date Edited: 8/16 3:53pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Jovieve
jc1138 posted:
Good point about Shmi, DRush76.

If I were Obi-Wan, and my friend and protege did what Anakin did, I would feel that I had failed in not helping them through their difficulties. If I were Obi-Wan I would feel that I should have fostered a relationship wherein he Anakin could have come to me with what was going on and that I would have helped him through it instead of putting him off with lectures and rules.
Perhaps Obi-Wan believes that he failed Anakin because of his pride in being a teacher. Maybe Obi-Wan thought that he was doing the right thing by lecturing Anakin so much. There is that I believe very telling line: "I thought that I could train him as well as Yoda. I was wrong."


Well, isn't the problem that Obi-Wan did foster a close relationship with Anakin? Too close? So much so that in the book RotS, Obi-Wan realized his failure - and the book states Yoda had even chided him about it - was that he was too attached to Anakin. He covered for him, supported him, rationalized away his actions, gave him a lot of latitude. For his part, Anakin both resented and feared disappointing his master so much that when he fell down - the Tusken incident and his feelings for Padme - he was basically too afraid to tell him - also documented in the book RotS. In AotC, Anakin does bring up his thoughts of Padme - just to twist his master's tail and get him off the subject of his dreams - and Obi-Wan rightly tells him to get his mind back on business and on who he is. Which Anakin blithely ignores.

You talk about rules and lectures like they're bad things and something Anakin was well justified in ignoring. The Jedi are not a group who meet once week down at the Waterbuffalo lodge for drinks and secret handshakes. The Jedi are a highly disciplined Order, they have dedicated their entire lives to their vocation, their training, their philosophy and to serve the Republic. This sort of life requires sacrifice. So yes, there are rules and regulations and ways of doing things. So if a student who wants to be a Jedi rebels and thinks himself above the rules, unwilling to sacrifice anything, then yes, he gets a lecture. Deservedly so. Personally I thought Anakin should have had his @ss busted down to Temple floor-sweeper, not just given a lecture, for his insubordination.

 

-----signature-----
"Are there Sith on this planet, Master Kenobi? Are they coming for us now? Should we - I don't know - run?"
"Run?" he echoed. "Run where, do you suggest?"
"I don't know! Away?"
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DARTH-FURBABY  191 posts
Registered: Apr '04
14723_Jedi Pikachu
Date Posted: 9/26 5:09pm Subject: The Prequels -- Obi-Wan's Trilogy
It seemed like there was a lack of focus on Anakin and his journey to the darkside and this was why I was somewhat disappointed in the prequels. I think some Clone War scenes (one or two where Anakin saves Obi-Wans skin "for the 9th/10th time") showing how Anakin earned his "fearless" reputation and Obi-Wan his "negociator" reputation might have proved insightful into both their characters. Also, a few more scenes between Anakin and Palpatine, showing Palpatine encouraging Anakin's increasing rebelliousness and arrogance and instilling darkside ideals. It has always bothered me somewhat that the actor(s) who played Anakin in the prequels didn't get top billing, but rather trailed behind Ewan McGregor and Natalie Portman and I don't think the actors who played Anakin were anywhere near as bad as some people like to believe. The prequels, I thought, were supposed to be about Anakin (as the OT was about Luke) and how 2 such close "brothers" (Anakin and Obi-Wan) would become the terrible enemies they were in ROTS and ANH.

 

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