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Author Topic: The Power of Darth Plagueis
stranger-danger  234 posts
Registered: Jan '09
6642_42
Date Posted: 6/23 7:00pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
What exactly did his power to "cheat death" entail? Is it something as simple as healing severe ailments, actually reanimating corpses or something else? And what is meant by him "losing his power"?

The details in the script are too vague and oddly specific to stand alone as the only mention of Plagueis (most of the information that was given in relation to Plagueis would be unnecessary if that were the case), so we must assume that the ambiguous remarks are hints towards a more complete story.

Discuss.

 

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T-R-  520 posts
Registered: Aug '03
6596_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 6/24 2:57am Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
Palpatine said he could keep the ones he cared about from dying, not that he could cheat death. Due to dialogue in RotS I think the two are different powers. One prevents death and one makes you immortal (cheating death).

 

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Jabba_The_Hutt_123  314 posts
Registered: Oct '03
22825_Jabba
Date Posted: 6/24 4:29am Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
Didn't he say, the power to cheat death only has achieved, but if we work together I'm sure we can uncover the secret, to Anakin?

I assume as it's the dark side it would be more, keep them alive even if severely injured, but not healing etc, unless he was more balanced and used the light side as well as the dark and then he might actually be able to heal those he cared about etc

 
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Dark_Lord_THX_1138 
Registered: Jun '09
Date Posted: 6/24 10:24am Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
There is always the theory however that Darth Plagueis never even had this power, and Palpatine just "made it up", a ruse to tempt Anakin to the "un-natural" powers of the Dark Side Of The Force and generally increase his lust for power since he knew of his fears surrounding Padme's death.

 
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T-R-  520 posts
Registered: Aug '03
6596_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 6/24 10:51am Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
Except that after Anakin became Vader, Palpatine sent him to take out the Temple and the Separatists and said "only then will you be strong enough in the dark side to save Padme." Then, when Anakin was talking to Padme after having completed his assignments, he said his new powers can save her. Not future powers but new powers.

To me that indicates that Anakin had the power to save Padme (i.e. the power Plaguies had), but it would take working with Palpatine to discover how to cheat death (i.e. the power only one had acheived and also known as immortality).

 

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Jabba_The_Hutt_123  314 posts
Registered: Oct '03
22825_Jabba
Date Posted: 6/24 1:12pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
Well Palpatine told Anakin to kill the jedi/younglings etc largely so padme wouldn't forgive him and I assume Anakin just feels the dark side can save her, so with him using it and his power being so great he assumes he will be able to, though oddly he says that he can overthrow the chancellor, implying he'd have killed him before saving padme so he may have thought he could save her due simply to how great he thought he was.

 
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CaptainGiladPellaeon  57 posts
Registered: Jun '09
7434_Gilad Pellaeon
Date Posted: 6/27 12:48am Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis - Date Edited: 6/27 12:54am (1 edits total) Edited By: CaptainGiladPellaeon
At the end of ROTS, after Obi-Wan beats Anakin and leaves him to die, Sidious walks up to Anakin, crouches next to him, and puts his hand on Anakin. Sidious' pose looks very similar to Obi-Wan's pose next to a fallen Jedi in the Geonosis arena, in AOTC, as well as Obi-Wan's pose when he revives Luke in ANH, after Luke has been attacked by Sand People, so I have always assumed that all three poses represent efforts to heal with the power of the Force. I have always thought it shows Obi-Wan's strength of character that he is trying to heal another Jedi in AOTC, when everyone else is focused on defending themselves, but it looks as if Obi-Wan was unsuccessful in this instance, and Luke's injuries in ANH are minor, especially compared to Anakin's in ROTS, so Sidious seems to be better at Force healing than is Obi-Wan, if Anakin's survival can be attributed to Sidious' healing powers. I have consequently wondered if this healing power is related to or a portion of the power to cheat death, as described in the Plagueis legend. (I realize Force healing is described quite differently in the EU, but to the best of my memory, these are the only three instances of Force healing in the movies.)

 

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Dark_Lord_THX_1138 
Registered: Jun '09
Date Posted: 6/27 4:00am Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis

Jabba_The_Hutt_123 posted:
Well Palpatine told Anakin to kill the jedi/younglings etc largely so padme wouldn't forgive him and I assume Anakin just feels the dark side can save her, so with him using it and his power being so great he assumes he will be able to, though oddly he says that he can overthrow the chancellor, implying he'd have killed him before saving padme so he may have thought he could save her due simply to how great he thought he was.


I'm not too sure if Palpatine ever intended to use this power to save Padme, after all even the Sith were against marriage and relationships.

 
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TaradosGon  1042 posts
Registered: Feb '03
7715_Poggle
Date Posted: 6/27 6:57pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis - Date Edited: 6/27 7:01pm (1 edits total) Edited By: TaradosGon
Palpatine was being cryptic. According to Wookieepedia, the developers of TFU thought about including Plagueis as a person that was keeping himself alive with the aid of machines (among other potential backgrounds they explored for the character).

Obviously, the character never made it into that game, but it shows that for all we know Plagueis' power to "cheat death" could have been derived from a bunch of machines keeping him alive and not the Force itself. Vader's suit remains a mystery, perhaps it was something Plagueis developed to extend his own life.

The power to cheat death and the power to save others from dying seem to be the same thing, just applied differently. Plagueis could help others cheat death, but couldn't keep himself alive. When Anakin asks Palpatine to help save Padme, it wouldn't make sense for Palpatine mentioning the power to "cheat death" if it was a completely different power that in no way helped Anakin. It is unclear whether Palpatine ever knew the power, or just made it up. Or Plagueis may have indeed have had the power to "cheat death" but it might not be what we think. Perhaps the late Plagueis (through the Vader suit) helped Vader cheat death. We don't know.

To me, I take the power to cheat death to be either a stretch of the truth or a blatant lie. The way Palpatine touches upon the subject is dodgy and suggests to me that it was just a carrot being dangled to tempt Anakin, not a real power, or at least not one Palpatine ever learned.

 
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CaptainGiladPellaeon  57 posts
Registered: Jun '09
7434_Gilad Pellaeon
Date Posted: 6/28 12:06am Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
TaradosGon posted:
Palpatine was being cryptic. According to Wookieepedia, the developers of TFU thought about including Plagueis as a person that was keeping himself alive with the aid of machines (among other potential backgrounds they explored for the character).

Obviously, the character never made it into that game, but it shows that for all we know Plagueis' power to "cheat death" could have been derived from a bunch of machines keeping him alive and not the Force itself. Vader's suit remains a mystery, perhaps it was something Plagueis developed to extend his own life.


That's interesting. Palpatine speaks of Plagueis' power over death as connected to the dark side of the Force, in the opera scene of ROTS, but there is precedent in the prequels for the idea that machines and mechanization could be linked to saving or prolonging life in an unnatural way.

In AOTC, after Anakin slaughters the Tuskens, he talks to Padme about the broken shifter and says, "I'm good at fixing things, always was, but I couldn't. Why do people have to die? Why couldn't I save her?" Padme responds, "There are some things no one can fix. You're not all powerful Ani," to which Anakin replies, "Well, I should be. Someday, I will be. I will be the most powerful Jedi ever. I promise you. I will even learn to stop people from dying."

So, Anakin compares people dying to machines breaking, expresses his frustration that people cannot be fixed like machines, and vows to find a way to, essentially, fix people like machines. He does not put his vow in those terms, but the preceding dialogue about the shifter makes the suggestion palpable enough. I thought from the first time I saw AOTC that Anakin's speech here foreshadowed the Vader suit, and in the hindsight of seeing ROTS, the scene also clearly foreshadows Palpatine's use of the Plagueis legend to manipulate Anakin, so it doesn't seem like such a stretch to me that the suit and the legend are connected on some level.

 

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Dark_Lord_THX_1138 
Registered: Jun '09
Date Posted: 6/28 7:16am Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
TaradosGon posted:
Palpatine was being cryptic. According to Wookieepedia, the developers of TFU thought about including Plagueis as a person that was keeping himself alive with the aid of machines (among other potential backgrounds they explored for the character).

Obviously, the character never made it into that game, but it shows that for all we know Plagueis' power to "cheat death" could have been derived from a bunch of machines keeping him alive and not the Force itself. Vader's suit remains a mystery, perhaps it was something Plagueis developed to extend his own life.

The power to cheat death and the power to save others from dying seem to be the same thing, just applied differently. Plagueis could help others cheat death, but couldn't keep himself alive. When Anakin asks Palpatine to help save Padme, it wouldn't make sense for Palpatine mentioning the power to "cheat death" if it was a completely different power that in no way helped Anakin. It is unclear whether Palpatine ever knew the power, or just made it up. Or Plagueis may have indeed have had the power to "cheat death" but it might not be what we think. Perhaps the late Plagueis (through the Vader suit) helped Vader cheat death. We don't know.

To me, I take the power to cheat death to be either a stretch of the truth or a blatant lie. The way Palpatine touches upon the subject is dodgy and suggests to me that it was just a carrot being dangled to tempt Anakin, not a real power, or at least not one Palpatine ever learned.


I agree. Palpatine was not telling the whole truth and I don't ever believe he or Anakin would have had the power to cheat death as he said. "Cryptic" describes Palpatine very well.

 
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Arawn_Fenn  10329 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 6/28 9:44am Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis - Date Edited: 6/28 9:46am (1 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
TaradosGon posted:
According to Wookieepedia, the developers of TFU thought about including Plagueis as a person that was keeping himself alive with the aid of machines (among other potential backgrounds they explored for the character).


They also wanted to use a Force ghost of Mace rolling_eyes , so I don't think we should attach too much significance to the ideas they had which were shot down by Lucas. It is clear from ROTS that Plagueis had been killed. A Mace Force ghost and a living Plagueis fly in the face of what Lucas tried to explain in the story of ROTS. I use the word "tried" because if that Wookiepedia info is correct it looks like the TFU developers missed those aspects of the plot.

TaradosGon posted:
The power to cheat death and the power to save others from dying seem to be the same thing, just applied differently.


Not according to Dark Lord.

TaradosGon posted:
if it was a completely different power that in no way helped Anakin.


Making Padme immortal would in no way help Anakin?

 

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TaradosGon  1042 posts
Registered: Feb '03
7715_Poggle
Date Posted: 6/28 4:38pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis - Date Edited: 6/28 4:55pm (3 edits total) Edited By: TaradosGon
Yoda and Obi-Wan rescued Anakin from becoming one with the force and losing his identity. Qui-Gon could have done the same with Mace, it wouldn't be much of a stretch for LucasArts to develop that idea, if they so chose. They asked Lucas if they could use Leia before they started developing her role. Chances seem likely that if they were looking to write Plagueis into their story, Lucas already approved of it.

There are people that attend these forums that seem to know more about the SW universe than the EU writers who themselves are just fans with writing skills. Karen Traviss, according to an interview at Starwars.com admittedly wasn't particularly a huge fan of the IP. Dark Lord, being a product of some EU writer, doesn't hold as much weight as the films and nothing in the films suggests that Palpatine was referring to two different powers. Plagueis never achieved immortality, therefore if "only one [had] achieved" immortality it certainly couldn't have been Plagueis (and it's obvious that the "one" is intended to be Plagueis). Palpatine was referring to the power to save others from death, a power with Plagueis did have, and which would have helped Anakin. Immortality clearly was not a power he had since he was murdered. Anakin's immediate concern was preventing Padme from dying in child birth, a power Plagueis was said to have. Immortality, either for himself or for Padme, was not the power he was pursuing, and having Palpatine bring it up to seduce Anakin (when the power to save others from death was already doing that) makes little sense.

Paraphrased dialogue:

Anakin: Help me save Padme from death (power #1).
Palpatine: Only one person has achieved immortality (power #2). If we work together we can discover the secret.
Anakin: OK, I'll do what you say.

That is just an incoherent mess of dialogue if taken to mean two different powers. There is nothing in the films to suggest this is the case.

Anakin: Help me save Padme from death
Palpatine: Only one person had the power to save people from death, we can unlock the power if we work together.
Anakin: OK, I'll do what you say.

This makes sense. They are referring to the same power.

 
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TaradosGon  1042 posts
Registered: Feb '03
7715_Poggle
Date Posted: 6/28 4:54pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis - Date Edited: 6/28 4:55pm (1 edits total) Edited By: TaradosGon
EDIT: Accidentally made a double post.

 
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T-R-  520 posts
Registered: Aug '03
6596_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 6/29 3:13am Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
posted:
Anakin: Help me save Padme from death (power #1).
Palpatine: Only one person has achieved immortality (power #2). If we work together we can discover the secret.
Anakin: OK, I'll do what you say.

You should continue the scene:

Palpatine: After you kill the younglings and CIS leaders you will be strong enough with the darkside to save Padme (power #1).

sometime after while talking to Padme:
Anakin: only my new powers can save you (power #1).

What doesn't make sense is for there to be only one power. If it was only one power it flops from Palpatine saying he has the power, then saying only one person had it and they can rediscover it, to telling Anakin he can have it as soon as Anakin becomes strong in the darkside - all in the same scene. Then Anakin actually says he can save Padme.

That ialogue points to 2 different powers.

 

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TaradosGon  1042 posts
Registered: Feb '03
7715_Poggle
Date Posted: 6/29 6:34am Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis - Date Edited: 6/29 6:47am (2 edits total) Edited By: TaradosGon
T-R- posted:
posted:
Anakin: Help me save Padme from death (power #1).
Palpatine: Only one person has achieved immortality (power #2). If we work together we can discover the secret.
Anakin: OK, I'll do what you say.

You should continue the scene:

Palpatine: After you kill the younglings and CIS leaders you will be strong enough with the darkside to save Padme (power #1).

sometime after while talking to Padme:
Anakin: only my new powers can save you (power #1).

What doesn't make sense is for there to be only one power. If it was only one power it flops from Palpatine saying he has the power, then saying only one person had it and they can rediscover it, to telling Anakin he can have it as soon as Anakin becomes strong in the darkside - all in the same scene. Then Anakin actually says he can save Padme.

That ialogue points to 2 different powers.


No, it doesn't. If he had power #1 (which he alluded to having) then power #2 is irrelevant.

Palpatine: He [Plagueis] could even save the ones he cared about from dying (power #1)
Palpatine: Know the power of the dark side, the power to save Padme (power #1)
Palpatine: I have the power to save the ones you love! (power #1)
Anakin: Just help me save Padme (power #1), I can't live without her.
Palpatine: To cheat death (power #2????) is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I'm sure we can discover the secret.
Palpatine: [...] Only then will you be strong enough with the darkside to save Padme (power #1)
Anakin: My love will not save you Padme, only my new powers can do that (power #1)

If there are two powers, then he really only mentions once when it is completely irrelevant to what Anakin wants. Anakin was drawn to the power to save Padme from dying in child birth before and after his turn (power #1). He never mentions anything about immortality (the alleged power #2).

"Cheating death" and "saving people from death" are used synonymously. Anakin wanted to use the force to help Padme survive child birth when she otherwise would have died. "Anakin wants to help Padme cheat death" and "Anakin wants to save Padme from death" can easily be taken to mean the same thing.

Palpatine lied. He said he had the power to save Padme ("I have the power to save the one's you love"), then when Anakin asks him to 'pay up' Palpatine claims that he never actually learned the power and that Anakin must do his bidding to get the power ("Do not hesitate; show no mercy. Only then will YOU be strong enough in the dark side to save Padme.")

Anakin pretty much set terms. He would assist Palpatine IF Palpatine "just [helped him] save Padme." Palpatine pretty much says "I can't do that, but if you do this, that, and the other thing for me then you'll be able to do it yourself." Palpatine got Anakin to surrender unconditionally since instead of paying up front he made Anakin, who had already crossed the line in sharing responsibility for Mace's death, go even further over the line with false promises of paying up in the future. Palpatine never had any intention of helping save Padme. She was a threat to him. He bought his time through lies and manipulation such that he won over Anakin, but never had to come through with his promises. And when Padme dies, Palpatine gets to wash his hands clean of any responsibility to Anakin, since it turns into a case of "I was going to help you, but you killed her." Palpatine ultimately had the power to save Anakin from death. But it was because of a mechanical suit, not through the force. He had the power "from a certain point of view."

 
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