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Author	Topic: The Power of Darth Plagueis
Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 6/29 4:14pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis - Date Edited: 6/29 4:25pm (5 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
	TaradosGon posted: Dark Lord, being a product of some EU writer, doesn't hold as much weight as the films An EU writer who got direct input from Lucas on his previous book. TaradosGon posted: (and it's obvious that the "one" is intended to be Plagueis) Yet Palpatine significantly chooses to say "one" instead of "Plagueis". TaradosGon posted: "Cheating death" and "saving people from death" are used synonymously. Anakin wanted to use the force to help Padme survive child birth when she otherwise would have died. "Anakin wants to help Padme cheat death" and "Anakin wants to save Padme from death" can easily be taken to mean the same thing. Saving someone from dying does not "cheat" death. People do it in the real world all the time, and without the use of the Force. If someone saved from immediate death is still mortal, death has not been cheated. TaradosGon posted: Palpatine lied. No, he didn't: TaradosGon posted: Palpatine ultimately had the power to save Anakin from death. But it was because of a mechanical suit, not through the force. According to the Lucas-edited ROTS novel, he used the Force to keep Anakin alive. TaradosGon posted: when it is completely irrelevant to what Anakin wants. Immortality is relevant to what Anakin wants. -----signature----- His legions, angel forms, who lay entranced. Thick as autumnal leaves that strow the brooks. <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> "Why don't you take your simplistic good/evil dualism and found Zoroastrianism?" - zweebex
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DarthBoba Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 6/29 4:24pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
	Arawn posted: According to the Lucas-edited ROTS novel, he used the Force to keep Anakin alive. Ahem! The novel does not say specifically that. What the novel does say is that Palpatine 'set his will' upon Vader to live, which isn't the same thing as using the Force to keep him alive. I may be splitting hairs here, but it's an important distinction, IMO. -----signature----- Only a Prime can defeat Vader and his Emperor.
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 6/29 4:28pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
	DarthBoba posted: What the novel does say is that Palpatine 'set his will' upon Vader to live, which isn't the same thing as using the Force to keep him alive. I may be splitting hairs here, but it's an important distinction, IMO. The will is strongly emphasized in citations of Force use by the Sith. If it's not use of the Force, then it's a useless gesture, and I don't see Palpatine making useless gestures. Dark Lord also referenced Palpatine using his "powers" to keep Anakin alive, which is unambiguous. -----signature----- His legions, angel forms, who lay entranced. Thick as autumnal leaves that strow the brooks. <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> "Why don't you take your simplistic good/evil dualism and found Zoroastrianism?" - zweebex
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morpha2 Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 6/29 5:03pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
	stranger-danger posted: And what is meant by him "losing his power"? This is an interesting question because it's the only instance in all six films in which it is suggested that a Jedi/Sith can lose the powers that they've learned to harness. IMO, it's lazy storytelling because Plagueis needed an achille's heel for the legend to work, so Lucas just made his fatal weakness up.
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DarthBoba Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 6/29 5:38pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
	Arawn_Fenn posted: DarthBoba posted: What the novel does say is that Palpatine 'set his will' upon Vader to live, which isn't the same thing as using the Force to keep him alive. I may be splitting hairs here, but it's an important distinction, IMO. The will is strongly emphasized in citations of Force use by the Sith. If it's not use of the Force, then it's a useless gesture, and I don't see Palpatine making useless gestures. Dark Lord also referenced Palpatine using his "powers" to keep Anakin alive, which is unambiguous. No, Dark Lord referred to Palpatine worrying about Vader surviving the "frantic shuttle trip back to Coruscant". Also-if he can keep him alive with the Force, why bother with the medical capsule? Kicks? -----signature----- Only a Prime can defeat Vader and his Emperor.
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CaptainGiladPellaeon Registered: Jun '09	Date Posted: 6/29 5:50pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
	T-R- posted: Palpatine: After you kill the younglings and CIS leaders you will be strong enough with the darkside to save Padme (power #1). sometime after while talking to Padme: Anakin: only my new powers can save you (power #1). What doesn't make sense is for there to be only one power. If it was only one power it flops from Palpatine saying he has the power, then saying only one person had it and they can rediscover it, to telling Anakin he can have it as soon as Anakin becomes strong in the darkside - all in the same scene. Then Anakin actually says he can save Padme. That ialogue points to 2 different powers. I think Anakin is just boasting when he tells Padme that his new powers can save her, assuming that he has the power to save her or will at some point in the near future, because that's what Palpatine told him, and by this point, he believes what Palpatine says. I don't see any evidence from the movie confirming Anakin's boast, so I don't think he's already acquired some power separate from any other power associated with Plagueis. And the phrase "cheat death" is a common one for barely surviving death, so I do not think that Palpatine must be offering some kind of complete immortality or return from death when he says, "To cheat death is a power only one has acheived." At the end of Star Trek II, after Spock dies, Kirk says he has never faced death, and adds, "I've cheated death," by which he does not mean that he has acheived immortality, but just that he's escaped a lot of situations where the odds of his survival and the survival of his friends were low. (Sorry for the Star Trek reference in a Star Wars forum, but it was the only example I could think of off the top of my head.) -----signature----- Whatever slippery ground exists here is beneath your feet. – Admiral Gilad Pellaeon (Vision of the Future) I question all that is not yet familiar to me. – Grand Admiral Thrawn (Heir to the Empire)
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 6/29 6:41pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis - Date Edited: 6/29 6:47pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
	DarthBoba posted: No, Dark Lord referred to Palpatine worrying about Vader surviving the "frantic shuttle trip back to Coruscant". Yes, I know; that's the part I was referring to, where it also explicitly says that Sidious used his powers. CaptainGiladPellaeon posted: And the phrase "cheat death" is a common one for barely surviving death, so I do not think that Palpatine must be offering some kind of complete immortality or return from death when he says, "To cheat death is a power only one has acheived." At the end of Star Trek II, after Spock dies, Kirk says he has never faced death, and adds, "I've cheated death," by which he does not mean that he has acheived immortality, but just that he's escaped a lot of situations where the odds of his survival and the survival of his friends were low. (Sorry for the Star Trek reference in a Star Wars forum, but it was the only example I could think of off the top of my head.) "To cheat death is a power only one has achieved." If only one has achieved this ability, it must be significantly more occult than the power held by, say, emergency medical technicians ( or the bravado of James Tiberius Kirk ). -----signature----- His legions, angel forms, who lay entranced. Thick as autumnal leaves that strow the brooks. <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> "Why don't you take your simplistic good/evil dualism and found Zoroastrianism?" - zweebex
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TaradosGon Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 6/30 7:21am Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis - Date Edited: 6/30 8:02am (2 edits total) Edited By: TaradosGon
	Arawn_Fenn posted: An EU writer who got direct input from Lucas on his previous book. Input from Lucas on his previous book does not make all of the author's works, from that point on, authoritative. Arawn_Fenn posted: Yet Palpatine significantly chooses to say "one" instead of "Plagueis". Plagueis is the only one alluded to as having the power. It's heavily implied that Plagueis is the one he's talking about as neither Palpatine nor Lucas - behind the scenes - alludes to any other Sith. Arawn_Fenn posted: Saving someone from dying does not "cheat" death. People do it in the real world all the time, and without the use of the Force. If someone saved from immediate death is still mortal, death has not been cheated. It means the same thing in the way it is used by Palpatine. Padme would have died and only a mystical power used in an "unnatural" way would keep her alive. Death is a "natural part of life" and Anakin wanted an "unnatural" power to save her from death. That's cheating death. And in the real world, "cheating death" can also be used in an instance when someone seems to miraculously survive a devastating incident; which is exactly what Anakin wanted."Cheating death" is a phrase used in the real world, and obviously immortal people are not walking around. All it means is to survive an event when death would have otherwise been expected. Plagueis nor any Sith Lord before him was immortal, and Sidious never suggested this, he even made the point of showing Plagueis' mortality when talking about how he was murdered. All Sidious mentioned was the power to keep people alive when death seemed inevitable. Arawn_Fenn posted: Immortality is relevant to what Anakin wants. He never expresses interest in immortality. He only expresses interest in saving Padme. Palpatine continuously promises him that he has that power. Bringing up immortality is irrelevent. Palpatine tells Anakin that he must kill the Jedi in the temple to become strong enough in the dark side to save Padme, not make her immortal. Anakin promises Padme that his "new powers" will save her, not make her live forever. Palpatine and Anakin both continuously make mention to save Padme from death in an unnatural manner. "Cheating death" was yet another reference to the same power he had already alluded to several times.
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TaradosGon Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 6/30 8:26am Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis - Date Edited: 6/30 8:38am (2 edits total) Edited By: TaradosGon
	CaptainGiladPellaeon posted: I think Anakin is just boasting when he tells Padme that his new powers can save her, assuming that he has the power to save her or will at some point in the near future, because that's what Palpatine told him, and by this point, he believes what Palpatine says. I don't see any evidence from the movie confirming Anakin's boast, so I don't think he's already acquired some power separate from any other power associated with Plagueis. And the phrase "cheat death" is a common one for barely surviving death, so I do not think that Palpatine must be offering some kind of complete immortality or return from death when he says, "To cheat death is a power only one has acheived." At the end of Star Trek II, after Spock dies, Kirk says he has never faced death, and adds, "I've cheated death," by which he does not mean that he has acheived immortality, but just that he's escaped a lot of situations where the odds of his survival and the survival of his friends were low. (Sorry for the Star Trek reference in a Star Wars forum, but it was the only example I could think of off the top of my head.) I agree on all accounts. Not only does Anakin tell Padme that his new found powers can saver her, but he also claims to be stronger than Palpatine, and also refers to his new empire. Both accounts are cases of boasting without substance. I also agree about "cheating death." It simply refers to surviving an incident in which death seems inevitable. The difference though is that in the real world people can't see the future. Surviving is attributed to 'luck.' If I drive a care off of a road, go into a roll down a hill, and slam into a tree, I may be told that I 'cheated death.' Or if I'm kayaking and I flip in heavy rapids with 'no hope' of turning myself right side up, only when the rapids luckily set me upright. By luck I narrowly survive an incident when the expectations that one would survive are non-existent. The difference in ROTS is that Anakin is seeing the future (or so he thinks). As far as he is concerned, he KNOWS she is going to die, it's not an expectation, it is fact in his mind. Palpatine talks of a power to manipulate midichlorians to create life from nothingness. Padme was going to die, but through that power he hoped to save her by giving her life through the force. Not by medicines or CPR or blood transfusions. He wasn't going to save her by giving aid to, or supplementing, her body's natural processes, he was going to give her life in an unnatural way by simply using the force to give life to someone who by all accounts should otherwise be dead. Palpatine says that Plagueis had the power to save the ones he cared about from dying. Who did he care about? Did Plagueis settle down with a wife and kids and keep them alive through the force? I would not imagine so. If ever Plagueis was to use the power (let alone possess it in the first place) to save someone, it was likely Palpatine who he saved. And Palpatine was not walking around with severed limbs or in a big mechanical suit. If Palpatine had the power, then he was still far from mastering it. He may have been able to use the force to keep Vader alive for the trip back to Coruscant, but ultimately he needed the suit to keep Vader alive. If Palpatine was ever mortally wounded, then it seems that Plagueis had mastered the power such that he could restore Palpatine completely. Palpatine may (or may not) have known the power to "cheat death" (i.e. save people from death). The film doesn't conclusively give an answer. But regardless it seems clear that he could not use it to its full effect, and therefore lied about having the power to save Padme from death if he even had it in the first place. At best maybe he could show Anakin the technique while Anakin was on his own to gain the power to effectively use it. But that is a moot point, since Palpatine would certainly never help Anakin save Padme, who was only a threat to him. Palpatine may have known the technique, but lacked the power to use it properly, and perhaps if Vader was able to turn Luke, then perhaps Luke could have used the power to its full effect and restored Vader, but that's simply speculation, and no such motive is developed in the films. And never is it implied that Palpatine or Plagueis (or any other Sith Lord) was immortal. Just as Palpatine ever sought to replace Dooku with Anakin, and Vader with Luke (when it became clear that Vader would never exceed Palpatine's power), perhaps Sidious was weaker than Plagueis, and Plagueis may have sought to replace him with a being of his own creation when it was discovered that Sidious could not effectively wield the powers that Plagueis had taught him. Again, this is speculation.
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 6/30 6:35pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis - Date Edited: 6/30 6:39pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
	TaradosGon posted: Input from Lucas on his previous book does not make all of the author's works, from that point on, authoritative. Unless Lucas and the author discussed Plagueis, who was first named as Palpatine's master in that book. TaradosGon posted: Plagueis is the only one alluded to as having the power. It's heavily implied that Plagueis is the one he's talking about as neither Palpatine nor Lucas - behind the scenes - alludes to any other Sith. Here you assume as fact what you seek to prove. Palpatine never said that Plagueis had the ability to cheat death. He said that Plagueis taught his apprentice everything he knew. TaradosGon posted: "Cheating death" is a phrase used in the real world, and obviously immortal people are not walking around. All it means is to survive an event when death would have otherwise been expected. Then it wouldn't be a dark side Force power only achieved by one person in history. TaradosGon posted: Plagueis nor any Sith Lord before him was immortal, and Sidious never suggested this, he even made the point of showing Plagueis' mortality when talking about how he was murdered. Once again you assume Plagueis was the one who cheated death. TaradosGon posted: He never expresses interest in immortality. He only expresses interest in saving Padme. Those things are connected. TaradosGon posted: But regardless it seems clear that he could not use it to its full effect, and therefore lied about having the power to save Padme from death if he even had it in the first place. Padme didn't get dismembered and immolated, and neither Anakin nor Palpatine were present at the time of her death. -----signature----- His legions, angel forms, who lay entranced. Thick as autumnal leaves that strow the brooks. <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> "Why don't you take your simplistic good/evil dualism and found Zoroastrianism?" - zweebex
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stranger-danger Registered: Jan '09	Date Posted: 6/30 7:06pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
	Arawn_Fenn, what Sith Lord or other entity are you suggesting held the power to "create life with the Force," if not Plagueis? Do you mean that Sidious acquired that ability? -----signature----- "Sometimes, you gotta' hit 'em in the crotch with a mallet so they feel ANYTHIN' at all." - My father, on satisfying hookers.
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 6/30 7:08pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
	Creating life through use of the Force is not the same ability as cheating death. -----signature----- His legions, angel forms, who lay entranced. Thick as autumnal leaves that strow the brooks. <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> "Why don't you take your simplistic good/evil dualism and found Zoroastrianism?" - zweebex
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stranger-danger Registered: Jan '09	Date Posted: 6/30 7:41pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
	If that it what you believe, can you explain your thoughts on what exactly the powers entailed? If "stopping [others] from dying", "cheat[ing] death" and "influenc[ing] the midi-chlorians to create life" were seperate powers, how exactly did they all work? Were those three powers related in any way? What kind of immortality was granted by stopping/cheating death? -----signature----- "Sometimes, you gotta' hit 'em in the crotch with a mallet so they feel ANYTHIN' at all." - My father, on satisfying hookers.
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 6/30 7:46pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
	stranger-danger posted: What kind of immortality was granted by stopping/cheating death? -----signature----- His legions, angel forms, who lay entranced. Thick as autumnal leaves that strow the brooks. <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> "Why don't you take your simplistic good/evil dualism and found Zoroastrianism?" - zweebex
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Gary_Buchenara Registered: Apr '09	Date Posted: 6/30 7:48pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
	stranger-danger posted: If that it what you believe, can you explain your thoughts on what exactly the powers entailed? If "stopping [others] from dying", "cheat[ing] death" and "influenc[ing] the midi-chlorians to create life" were seperate powers, how exactly did they all work? Were those three powers related in any way? What kind of immortality was granted by stopping/cheating death? Good question. Are you able to explain this please?
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