Jedi Council Forums - The Power of Darth Plagueis

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Author	Topic: The Power of Darth Plagueis
Gary_Buchenara Registered: Apr '09	Date Posted: 6/30 9:23pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
	Don't we only have Sidious' word on that?
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 6/30 9:26pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis - Date Edited: 6/30 9:30pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
	We only have Sidious' word that Plagueis even existed in the first place. If you want to take that argument to its logical extreme, we ultimately know nothing at all from any dialogue in these films since Lucas never teleports into a scene to tell us things. However, that said, we also have logical deductions based on what we know about Sidious' character. If Sidious knew that Plagueis had an obscure Force power to cheat death, then it stands to reason that Sidious would not have killed him before learning this power. -----signature----- "You're both from strange little backwater planets. You both have odd powers. You're male and she's female. What more do you need? Believe me, buddy, if I were you, I'd go right up there and ask her if she wants to ride on my rancor." - Han Solo
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Gary_Buchenara Registered: Apr '09	Date Posted: 6/30 9:28pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
	Sidious orchestrated a full-scale galactic war in which pretty much everyone on both sides was completely deceived as to it's purpose. All I'm saying is that it's not totally beyond the realms of possibility that he lied.
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 6/30 9:37pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis - Date Edited: 6/30 9:39pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
	Sidious may have lied to the Senate, but in most cases he speaks the literal truth. This is especially apparent in the interaction between Sidious and Anakin; here, Sidious' statements are not provably untrue going by the films alone, and are confirmed as true by EU. -----signature----- "You're both from strange little backwater planets. You both have odd powers. You're male and she's female. What more do you need? Believe me, buddy, if I were you, I'd go right up there and ask her if she wants to ride on my rancor." - Han Solo
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stranger-danger Registered: Jan '09	Date Posted: 6/30 9:41pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis - Date Edited: 6/30 9:54pm (3 edits total) Edited By: stranger-danger
	Arawn_Fenn posted: stranger-danger posted: What evidence has led you to believe that an entirely seperate and unseen character is responsible for leasrning this ability This. I was worried that you'd cite that as your referece. Not because it serves to validate your point. It is because you have unleashed the wild and erratic power of the EU into our once sane debate. You've disappointed me, Arawn_Fenn. I didn't think that your view of Star Wars was subject to the whim of authors who almost arbitrarily tread on established canon (often unintentionally, but nevertheless the damage is done). Either you hold all EU material to be canon, in which case your existence is an affront to the Lucas dogma, or you hold certain texts to be canon, which is infinitely worse, as you futilely try to balance the varied and conflicting visions of the Star Wars saga into one bastardised perception of your choosing, forever skewing your ability to effectively argue for any point in either world (the Lucas canon or the EU). At any rate, your reference to that novel does not support your point if you are referring to the passage I think you are. That passage involves Sidious reflecting on how the ancient Sith Lords once held the power of immortality, but it was lost to later generations of the order. Note how it is multiple Sith Lords who were said to possess this power, not "one". Also, I think this passage was included not at Lucas' urging (as I think this novel was written with input from Lucas), but rather to reconcile the existence of Force Ghosts of Sith Lords in the EU. It was included so that this blaring contradiction of G-canon could be remedied somewhat. But since the facts of the EU are being twisted to fit with the information of the films suggests to me that it is founded upon unstable ground and shouldn't be relied on for canon. Even if it was "canon" (giving this novel that dignity even in a hypothetical sense makes me vomit with fury), then it does not support your thought that there was one other unnamed Sith with the power of cheating death (let alone immortality) because "Dark Lord" indicates that the secret of immortality was known to several of the Sith Lords of ancient times, not just "one". It would be a seperate Sith with a different ability from those that had the ability to become spirits through the Force after their bodies had died. So, even going by that novel, the "one" referred to by Sidious is still likely to be Plagueis. -----signature----- "Sometimes, you gotta' hit 'em in the crotch with a mallet so they feel ANYTHIN' at all." - My father, on satisfying hookers.
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stranger-danger Registered: Jan '09	Date Posted: 6/30 9:51pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis - Date Edited: 6/30 10:07pm (2 edits total) Edited By: stranger-danger
	Arawn_Fenn posted: stranger-danger posted: It would require a lot of self-direction on the part of the audience to arrive at the same conclusion that you have. God forbid the audience have any self-direction. We certainly wouldn't want that. When I said self-direction, I wasn't suggesting that most people lacked the general ability to reach a conclusion that is meant to be reached by considering all the data. I was referring to the fact that there is not enough information given in the films to determine that another Sith Lord altogether held the power of immortality. I know you've shown that the novel "Dark Lord" is your source, but the vast majority of the audience would not have read that novel and would have no one besides Plagueis to suspect of being the "one" referred to by Sidious. -----signature----- "Sometimes, you gotta' hit 'em in the crotch with a mallet so they feel ANYTHIN' at all." - My father, on satisfying hookers.
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Gary_Buchenara Registered: Apr '09	Date Posted: 6/30 10:49pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
	Another aspect of this issue which perplexes me slightly is why following his turn, when Anakin suggests to Sidious that he show him how to save Padme, Sidious makes no mention of the power which he has supposedly learned from Plagueis. He talks immediately about how they can together discover the secret of immortality which this "one", whoever it is, has discovered. But if Plagueis did have another, lesser power, and Sidious learned everything that Plagueis knew, surely that knowledge would be of some use to Anakin in helping Padme, even if the knowledge pertaining to immotality had not yet been learned. Did he not want to pass on the knowledge which Plagueis had given him to Anakin? Did he never in fact receive the knowledge from Plagueis, in which case Plagueis probably was the "one" referred to as being the only one who could cheat death? Was the whole story a lie to deceive Anakin into turning to the Dark Side?
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 7/1 9:24am Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis - Date Edited: 7/1 9:27am (1 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
	stranger-danger posted: That passage involves Sidious reflecting on how the ancient Sith Lords once held the power of immortality, but it was lost to later generations of the order. Note how it is multiple Sith Lords who were said to possess this power, not "one". The passage only says that "the most powerful" of the ancient Sith knew the power. There is no explicit reference to multiple Sith. Taken by itself the passage could be interpreted either way; however, since we know from ROTS that only one achieved this power, we know that the Dark Lord passage refers to one Sith. stranger-danger posted: I didn't think that your view of Star Wars was subject to the whim of authors who almost arbitrarily tread on established canon (often unintentionally, but nevertheless the damage is done). Either you hold all EU material to be canon, in which case your existence is an affront to the Lucas dogma, or you hold certain texts to be canon, which is infinitely worse, as you futilely try to balance the varied and conflicting visions of the Star Wars saga into one bastardised perception of your choosing The author's reasoning stands on its own. I don't see any reason to assume the correctness of an "all or nothing" EU stance. -----signature----- "You're both from strange little backwater planets. You both have odd powers. You're male and she's female. What more do you need? Believe me, buddy, if I were you, I'd go right up there and ask her if she wants to ride on my rancor." - Han Solo
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Gary_Buchenara Registered: Apr '09	Date Posted: 7/1 1:11pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
	I'm a long way from being an authority on the EU, but if he's to be taken at his word and the "father, son and holy ghost" analogy, it seems to me that as long as it doesn't contradict major film elements, Lucas is quite happy to let authors do as they please.
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yodas_waiter Registered: Oct '06	Date Posted: 7/1 3:00pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
	stranger-danger posted: Also, since you allude to the "one" that Sidious refers to as the only individual to "cheat death" being someone other than Plagueis, who else would it be? A long time ago, when I was a newbie, I posted a thread where I suggested that the "one" Sidious is referring to is actually Qui-Gon, though Sidious is unaware of the identity of the "one". It was mostly scoffed at by the poster here but I do have my reasons why I believe this, mainly that Plagueis actually died and why Sidious refers to it as a mystery that must be unlocked. Anyhoo, carry on... -----signature----- Padawan to Sionnach-Airgid Author of Chyler databank entry Nominated Best New Author in Before the Saga 06/07 The Enforcer (SW Super-hero tribute): http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/28028864/p1/?2
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CaptainGiladPellaeon Registered: Jun '09	Date Posted: 7/1 3:39pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
	Arawn_Fenn posted: Sidious may have lied to the Senate, but in most cases he speaks the literal truth. This is especially apparent in the interaction between Sidious and Anakin; here, Sidious' statements are not provably untrue going by the films alone, and are confirmed as true by EU. Sidious identifies "The Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise" as a "Sith legend." That statement is not contradicted by anything in ROTS, as the movie currently stands, but it does contradict the EU position, also put forth by the ROTS novelization and earlier drafts of the movie script, that Plagueis was, in fact, Sidious' master. At least, I see no way that something which happened to Plagueis and Sidious within the very recent past could have attained legendary status with any group--a legend in Sidious' own mind perhaps, but that meaning would be so far from anything Anakin could possibly infer that Sidious is most certainly not telling him any kind of truth when he refers to Plagueis' history as "legend." Whether Plagueis is or is not Sidious' master is a complicated question of what constitutes Star Wars canon, but my point is that all the EU cannot be reconciled with everything Sidious' says in ROTS as if both are uncomplicated truth. As others have pointed out, Sidious may not mean the same thing by "cheat death" that people in our world do, but the fact that people in our world use the term proves that "cheat death" has a plenitude of meanings, many of which need not imply permanent immortality, so Sidious' use of the term is not necessarily a reference to immortality. I also concur with those who have noted that it makes little dramatic sense for Sidious to mention some other Sith and some other power in the middle of the ROTS scene. If Sidious and Anakin are posited as having any kind of psychological interiority at all, Sidious would have no internal motive for dropping this hint about some other Sith to astute audience members, and Anakin would be completely perplexed by Sidious' abrupt change of the subject from the power most immediately important to him. -----signature----- Whatever slippery ground exists here is beneath your feet. – Admiral Gilad Pellaeon (Vision of the Future) I question all that is not yet familiar to me. – Grand Admiral Thrawn (Heir to the Empire)
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Obi-Chron Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 7/1 5:49pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
	I "think" what Lucas was attempting to do in the Opera scene was have Sidious sow a deeper mistrust of the Jedi through his tale. In doing so, he paints the order as narrow-minded and not open to attempt, let alone master using the force in such a radical and innovative way. The Jedi tell Anakin he must "let go" of his attachments, that he should "celebrate" when a loved one joins with the force. Palpatine is blatantly calling out that philosophy, saying instead that extending life of a loved one, or even creating new life is not only possible through the force, it has been done -- but "not from the Jedi." -----signature----- “The dark night of the soul comes just before revelation." ~ Joseph Campbell “It is by going down into the abyss that we recover the treasure of The Phantom Menace..." ~ SithStarSlayer
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Gary_Buchenara Registered: Apr '09	Date Posted: 7/1 10:24pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
	"Legend" is an interesting choice of words. If Plagueis was Sidious' master, and Plagueis is dead, then who else would know the story apart from Sidious? In any event, it would hardly constitute a legend.
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stranger-danger Registered: Jan '09	Date Posted: 7/2 12:35am Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis - Date Edited: 7/2 12:42am (2 edits total) Edited By: stranger-danger
	Arawn_Fenn posted: The passage only says that "the most powerful" of the ancient Sith knew the power. There is no explicit reference to multiple Sith. Taken by itself the passage could be interpreted either way; however, since we know from ROTS that only one achieved this power, we know that the Dark Lord passage refers to one Sith. In conjunction with what had been established earlier in the film, the potentially ambiguous passage referring to a singular Sith Lord is unlikely. Your opinion that it refers to the "one" that Sidious mentioned is contingent upon your interpretation of what the term "cheat death" entails (that it refers invariably to the complete prevention of death). However, the term "cheat death", as it is used, can easily be seen to refer to a life-prolonging power short of immortality. Regardless of it being synonymous with a power involving immortality, it is readily apparent that Sidious was referring to Plagueis' power. You've lost, old man. Gary_Buchenara posted: "Legend" is an interesting choice of words. If Plagueis was Sidious' master, and Plagueis is dead, then who else would know the story apart from Sidious? In any event, it would hardly constitute a legend. Palpatine's labelling of the Tragedy of Darth Plageuis the Wise as a Sith Legend can be corroborated by Yoda's knowledge of that tale mentioned in the novelisation. However, going by the films alone, it can be said that Palpatine was embelishing the story by giving it the aspect of being an archaic tale, which might be more highly regarded by Anakin if it was perceived as a tale of such significance that it has withstood time and become a legend. Alternatively (or simultaneously), he could have referred to it as a legend so that it would be considered to have taken place before the Sith's widely believed extinction (if Palpatine admitted to knowing about Sith activity after this, he would be suspected of being the Sith Lord that the Jedi were trying to find). Now, let's get back to the topic at hand. What was the nature of Plagueis' power? This little tangent that focused on determing the identity of the "one" that Sidious mentioned, while a distraction, did raise some interesting questions as what the power may have been. Was it a means to prolong life indefinately, or did it prevent those who were near death from dying? Could it be applied for both purposes? -----signature----- "Sometimes, you gotta' hit 'em in the crotch with a mallet so they feel ANYTHIN' at all." - My father, on satisfying hookers.
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Gary_Buchenara Registered: Apr '09	Date Posted: 7/2 1:31pm Subject: The Power of Darth Plagueis
	I agree that the "legend" was probably embellished in order to convince Anakin that he must turn to the Dark Side. The extent of this embellishment is very much up for debate I would say, particularly going on film content.
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