Jedi Council Forums - Sidious vs 4 Jedi

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Author	Topic: Sidious vs 4 Jedi
DarthBoba Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 6/28 1:19pm Subject: Sidious vs 4 Jedi
	I think I like this idea more now. Before I thought he'd just turned a few minutes prior, not for a significant chunk of the movie. And the "Sith Lord on the Jedi Council" idea is neat. -----signature----- Only a Prime can defeat Vader and his Emperor.
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Obi-Chron Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 6/29 12:10pm Subject: Sidious vs 4 Jedi - Date Edited: 6/29 12:45pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Obi-Chron
	I agree with Sx3 on the rewrite aspects. Seems George listened too hard to his movie making "band of brothers" and made what ended up with a change that made matters worse. Having Anakin 'agree' to turn to the dark side while still on the council would have extended the scene where he is denied master status. Sort of a "Deny me, will ya!" statement, where power is shown as becoming more and more important to the decisions that Anakin makes. Then, standing behind Palpatine (a very visual depiction of the "stand behind me" metaphor) as the posse arrives would take on a much creepier feeling, knowing he was on the verge of being the Vader we loved to hate in the OT. There's more 'proof' -- go HERE and check out the images at the bottom of the page!!!! EDIT: tried to post the 'monitor' shot at the above link, bottom of the page, but got caught by the 'link monkey,' so I linked to the web page instead. -----signature----- “The dark night of the soul comes just before revelation." ~ Joseph Campbell “It is by going down into the abyss that we recover the treasure of The Phantom Menace..." ~ SithStarSlayer
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eht13 Registered: Sep '07	Date Posted: 6/29 1:56pm Subject: Sidious vs 4 Jedi
	Interesting points about the final scene and the original / "pre-altered" scene. In other discussions about this I thought I would always prefer the final scene because having Anakin turn earlier in the movie could make it seem less plausible that he turns... that he would not yet have enough "piled on him" before he finally cracks / snaps. But this description and picture shown above is interesting and I wish we could have seen that too, as some sort of deleted scene or something. As far as the final scene in ROTS vs. the scene in the novel, I think part of it is, as someone said above, simply the difference in between how long it takes to watch versus how long it takes to read. In both scenes, Palpatine certainly "owns" the Jedi. Part of what struck me was how much more graphic or violent the novel scene was... I think two of the three Jedis (not including Mace) get beheaded, one of whose heads gets placed on Palpatine's desk if I recall. If filmed the scene would probably have been made slightly more tame, at least to be more like Dooku's beheading. The other aspect to the novel scene that was cool was how Palpatine audio-recorded the confrontation up to a certain point, knowing what to say so that things would be interpreted differently (than they really happened) later when he played the recording for the Senate.
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SithStarSlayer Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 6/29 3:04pm Subject: Sidious vs 4 Jedi
	It’s ironic to me that you would link to a page on T-bone’s site that I actually spoiled the 3SA with back in the day. Back when Motee was running around here, dropping Novel-spoilerz from Australia… I got my hands on the REVISED dialog between Mace and Palpatine. I had the 3SA on its ear for two days until Motee confirmed my post. sigh Those were the days, Chron... BTW, have you checked out T-Bone’s cut scenes from TPM? You’ll find a few more SSS images over there as well. *** Anybody have a handy copy of the FIRST draft of the ROTS script? I’m havin a bit o trouble with finding my copy. -----signature----- Lucas didn't ruin my childhood but he sure wrecked Vader's ^^Foolish men mistake transitory semblance 4 eternal fact^^ o[]\|\|]ooooooooo[0]\|\|[]{ Gal: 5:19-21 Philippians 2:9-11
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darth-sinister Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 6/30 2:12pm Subject: Sidious vs 4 Jedi
	What I find funny is that people complained that everyone was a "Yes man" with TPM and AOTC, but with this one scene in ROTS, when people objected, you get mad because he listened to someone else. The way the scene works now, it shows that Anakin turned because he cared about someone too much. Just like Luke almost turned for the very same reason. Luke struggled and the feeling was that Anakin should've struggled, rather than just surrender from the outset. -----signature----- Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge." Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side. Something, something, something complete."
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Drewton Registered: Jan '09	Date Posted: 6/30 3:13pm Subject: Sidious vs 4 Jedi - Date Edited: 6/30 3:14pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Drewton
	SithStarSlayer posted: Anybody have a handy copy of the FIRST draft of the ROTS script? I’m havin a bit o trouble with finding my copy. I've been looking for this too, but no luck. -----signature----- http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-sith-lords-massive-improvement-mod The Sith Lords Massive Improvement Mod
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 6/30 7:10pm Subject: Sidious vs 4 Jedi
	darth-sinister posted: What I find funny is that people complained that everyone was a "Yes man" with TPM and AOTC, but with this one scene in ROTS, when people objected, you get mad because he listened to someone else. Examples like this show that Lucas is damned no matter what he does. People complain that the turn was too abrupt... then they advocate making it even more abrupt. -----signature----- His legions, angel forms, who lay entranced. Thick as autumnal leaves that strow the brooks. <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> "Why don't you take your simplistic good/evil dualism and found Zoroastrianism?" - zweebex
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Palpidious23 Registered: Jul '09	Date Posted: 7/1 7:54am Subject: Sidious vs 4 Jedi
	Don't get me wrong, I loved ROTS, but in my opinion, the scene in the novel blows the film version away, I wish that Lucas would have put something like that in. I believe that the film version, with Palpatine's little "tornado jump" making it, in my opinion, a little "cheesy" as well as the instant killing of Kolar, Tiin and Fisto didn't make me believe the scene as much. I assume that Lucas used the scene to try to show how powerful Palpatine was, but it didn't work. That is just my opinion. though. -----signature----- I am a Jedi, like my father before me- Luke Skywalker Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right- Stewie Griffin
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SithStarSlayer Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 7/1 12:44pm Subject: Sidious vs 4 Jedi
	darth-sinister posted: What I find funny is that people complained that everyone was a "Yes man" with TPM and AOTC, but with this one scene in ROTS, when people objected, you get mad because he listened to someone else. "Who u callin mad, Willis?" I for one, have never heard of Lucas screening key plot points from TPM and AOTC with the same homies that chewed his ear off about AnaVader being present for the Posse-Thrashing. Let us be honest, here. The DVD commentaries confirm that Rick McCallum IS the ultimate 'yes man'... no need to mention everyone, or anyone else. All I'm saying is if it worked fine in the novelization... Why 'couldn't' it work onscreen? The edits did not make the scene better; they made it digestable. Star Wars deserves more than that. -----signature----- Lucas didn't ruin my childhood but he sure wrecked Vader's ^^Foolish men mistake transitory semblance 4 eternal fact^^ o[]\|\|]ooooooooo[0]\|\|[]{ Gal: 5:19-21 Philippians 2:9-11
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Obi-Chron Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 7/1 1:04pm Subject: Sidious vs 4 Jedi
	^^^ Valid critique, IMO! Look, GL had 20 years before he started filming the PT. Don't ya think he coulda-shoulda consulted his techno-geek band of brothers a bit more during this rather extended spin-up process so as to avoid the hurried edits and reshoots that ultimately wounded ROTS? -----signature----- “The dark night of the soul comes just before revelation." ~ Joseph Campbell “It is by going down into the abyss that we recover the treasure of The Phantom Menace..." ~ SithStarSlayer
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eht13 Registered: Sep '07	Date Posted: 7/1 1:55pm Subject: Sidious vs 4 Jedi
	SithStarSlayer posted: All I'm saying is if it worked fine in the novelization... Why 'couldn't' it work onscreen? Maybe I'm confused, but aren't we talking about two different distinctions here? The final ROTS movie scene vs. the pre-altered movie scene is one... the final ROTS movie scene vs. the ROTS novel scene is the other. The ROTS novel doesn't have Anakin turn any earlier than the final movie does, while the pre-altered movie scene does show him having already turned (which is earlier than the final movie).
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SithStarSlayer Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 7/1 2:10pm Subject: Sidious vs 4 Jedi
	My bad. I was comparing script notes and novel stuff and lost my place. I can live with the Novel and Film as they are... That said, I wish the turn had been left alone. -----signature----- Lucas didn't ruin my childhood but he sure wrecked Vader's ^^Foolish men mistake transitory semblance 4 eternal fact^^ o[]\|\|]ooooooooo[0]\|\|[]{ Gal: 5:19-21 Philippians 2:9-11
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darth-sinister Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 7/1 2:23pm Subject: Sidious vs 4 Jedi
	Palpidious23 posted: Don't get me wrong, I loved ROTS, but in my opinion, the scene in the novel blows the film version away, I wish that Lucas would have put something like that in. I believe that the film version, with Palpatine's little "tornado jump" making it, in my opinion, a little "cheesy" as well as the instant killing of Kolar, Tiin and Fisto didn't make me believe the scene as much. I assume that Lucas used the scene to try to show how powerful Palpatine was, but it didn't work. That is just my opinion. though. I haven't read the novelization in a while, but I don't think there's much difference in the actual fight. The only difference is how Palpatine comes at them, which is more of Lucas having Stover alter it a bit so that it could be preserved for the big screen. Palpatine's spin is a nod towards Yoda, since he does his own spins. SithStarSlayer posted: I for one, have never heard of Lucas screening key plot points from TPM and AOTC with the same homies that chewed his ear off about AnaVader being present for the Posse-Thrashing. Lucas showed the final act of TPM, to his friends and if I recall, they did suggest some changes. Lucas changed them and then changed it back before releasing it. I don't recall it for AOTC. When it came to ROTS, he listened to his friends and not only changed it, but stuck with his change. Guys who were directors and better at it than him. SithStarSlayer posted: All I'm saying is if it worked fine in the novelization... Why 'couldn't' it work onscreen? The novelization is longer because Stover had a page and/or word quota to fulfill. That's what it really comes down to. Obi-Chron posted: Look, GL had 20 years before he started filming the PT. Don't ya think he coulda-shoulda consulted his techno-geek band of brothers a bit more during this rather extended spin-up process so as to avoid the hurried edits and reshoots that ultimately wounded ROTS? The reshoots were done on the other films as well. Even when Kershner was directing TESB, they had to go back and quickly reshoot stuff. And they had less time to work with. As to his friends, he never consulted them. He might've shown stuff to Spielberg, but the majority of what he saw was during the editing process. -----signature----- Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge." Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side. Something, something, something complete."
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Obi-Chron Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 7/1 5:38pm Subject: Sidious vs 4 Jedi
	darth-sinister posted: Obi-Chron posted: Look, GL had 20 years before he started filming the PT. Don't ya think he coulda-shoulda consulted his techno-geek band of brothers a bit more during this rather extended spin-up process so as to avoid the hurried edits and reshoots that ultimately wounded ROTS? The reshoots were done on the other films as well. Even when Kershner was directing TESB, they had to go back and quickly reshoot stuff. And they had less time to work with. As to his friends, he never consulted them. He might've shown stuff to Spielberg, but the majority of what he saw was during the editing process. From Homing Beacon #139, June 23, 2005 (Pablo Hidalgo is quoted in regard to reshooting the scene in Palaptine's office): It's one of the fieriest debates of online fan forums: when Palpatine was cornered in his office's giant window-frame, was he really overpowered by Mace? Or was he faking to lure Anakin? Could Mace really have gotten the upper hand on the Sith Lord? George Lucas is the ultimate keeper of the true answer, and he's not telling... yet, anyway. If you had asked me in the Summer of '03, when the sequence was first shot, I would have had a solid answer. But, if you asked me in the Fall of '04, when the sequence was re-shot, well... for those who want to debate, it's best to know more of the story of how this scene came to be. This entire sequence changed significantly during postproduction. What we witnessed in Sydney told a different story. Anakin did not earn Mace's trust by ratting out Sidious right away. He did not agonize over his decisions while sitting alone in the Jedi Council chamber. He did not rush in at the last minute to witness a questionable balance of power. Instead, he stayed at Palpatine's side, in the Chancellor's private office, as Mace and his posse of Jedi barged in. "Stand behind me," ordered Mace, in Sam Jackson's demanding tones. But Anakin didn't budge. Instead, he watched passively as Palpatine used the Force to snatch Anakin's lightsaber from his belt and attacks Mace and the Jedi. There's ample evidence of this original version for those with sharp eyes and behind-the-scenes photos. Heck, even Hasbro action figures with Palpatine packaged with Anakin's lightsaber got out there in the initial shipments. So, if Sidious' entire duel played out before Anakin's stunned eyes, I'd be inclined to think that his fall was just for show. This changed after a screening George Lucas held for a few key colleagues. Their reactions underscored the shortcomings of the way this duel was constructed. Anakin's inaction was hard to justify cinematically. "The story was there, but it wasn't clear," said Lucas at the time it came to rebuild this scene. "It was too abstract. We opened up that part and looked at what we could do." When word of the change came down, the keepers of continuities started carefully tracking the evolving consequences. Palpatine had two lightsabers, then, since he loses this one in the duel with Mace. I still have in my inbox a tentative email from one of the authors asking, "um, have we figured out yet whose lightsaber Palpatine uses in the fight with the Jedi?" At first, it was feared it was impossible to CG the small svelte-handled weapon over Anakin's relatively chunky handle, but nonetheless, that was the lightsaber given to McDiarmid for the pickup photography. The shots of Palpatine rising from his chair and extending the weapon were reshot. The bulk of the duel between Sidious and Mace stayed from principal photography, except for a new touch -- a kick to Palpatine's face, done with stunt double Michael Byrne. This was shot on a partial set of just a piece of window-frame on Friday, August 27. So... with this revised duel, if Sidious threw the fight, it places an awful lot of faith on Anakin's timing ...and he suffered a kicked-in face to boot. For what it's worth to those arguing, I doubt there's anyone who thinks Palpatine's serious when he claims he's too weak. That's obviously a lie. But was the fall into the corner that preceded his pleas for help a lie as well? What else changed in this scene? There are a few more interesting details, particularly where it moved in the sequencing of the story. But that will have to wait for another entry. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ . . . I respectfully stand by my previous post! -----signature----- “The dark night of the soul comes just before revelation." ~ Joseph Campbell “It is by going down into the abyss that we recover the treasure of The Phantom Menace..." ~ SithStarSlayer
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eht13 Registered: Sep '07	Date Posted: 7/1 7:39pm Subject: Sidious vs 4 Jedi
	SithStarSlayer posted: My bad. I was comparing script notes and novel stuff and lost my place. I can live with the Novel and Film as they are... That said, I wish the turn had been left alone. No problem, thanks... just wanted to confirm.
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