Obi-Chron posted:darth-sinister posted: Obi-Chron posted:Look, GL had 20 years before he started filming the PT. Don't ya think he coulda-shoulda consulted his techno-geek band of brothers a bit more during this rather extended spin-up process so as to avoid the hurried edits and reshoots that ultimately wounded ROTS? The reshoots were done on the other films as well. Even when Kershner was directing TESB, they had to go back and quickly reshoot stuff. And they had less time to work with. As to his friends, he never consulted them. He might've shown stuff to Spielberg, but the majority of what he saw was during the editing process. From Homing Beacon #139, June 23, 2005 (Pablo Hidalgo is quoted in regard to reshooting the scene in Palaptine's office): So, if Sidious' entire duel played out before Anakin's stunned eyes, I'd be inclined to think that his fall was just for show. This changed after a screening George Lucas held for a few key colleagues. Their reactions underscored the shortcomings of the way this duel was constructed. Anakin's inaction was hard to justify cinematically. "The story was there, but it wasn't clear," said Lucas at the time it came to rebuild this scene. "It was too abstract. We opened up that part and looked at what we could do." . . . I respectfully stand by my previous post!
darth-sinister posted: Obi-Chron posted:Look, GL had 20 years before he started filming the PT. Don't ya think he coulda-shoulda consulted his techno-geek band of brothers a bit more during this rather extended spin-up process so as to avoid the hurried edits and reshoots that ultimately wounded ROTS? The reshoots were done on the other films as well. Even when Kershner was directing TESB, they had to go back and quickly reshoot stuff. And they had less time to work with. As to his friends, he never consulted them. He might've shown stuff to Spielberg, but the majority of what he saw was during the editing process.
Obi-Chron posted:Look, GL had 20 years before he started filming the PT. Don't ya think he coulda-shoulda consulted his techno-geek band of brothers a bit more during this rather extended spin-up process so as to avoid the hurried edits and reshoots that ultimately wounded ROTS?
CaptainGiladPellaeon posted:Yes, Palpatine has been a friend of his for a long time, but doesn't the revelation of Palpatine's real identity throw everything about that friendship into question, since the whole time, Palpatine was lying about who he really is? Yes, Palpatine claims that if Anakin joins the Sith he will attain the power to save Padme, but as Anakin tries to decide if he believes this claim, doesn't he balance it against the fact that Dooku has been trying to kill Padme and Palpatine is Dooku's master, so how trustworthy can Palpatine be on the issue of protecting Padme? Does Anakin never think about the fact that Darth Maul killed Qui-Gon, which makes the Sith and Palpatine responsible? What about the fact that Dooku (and according to the EU, Ventress) killed so many Jedi, again implicating Palpatine and the Sith as an organization or order? Even if Anakin is turning his back on the Jedi Order, these individual murdered Jedi were his friends. And there is ample evidence that Anakin wants to end the war, especially after Padme expresses her desire for its end, so why isn't Anakin troubled by the fact that the Sith clearly started the war, even if he does believe Palpatine about the Jedi prolonging it? I'm not saying that any of these issues must categorically prevent Anakin from becoming a Sith, but I would expect him to at least wrestle with some of these issues before dramatically, consciously changing allegiances to the Sith, which is a very different thing than giving in to hate, fear and the dark side. (Things do unfold quickly, and Anakin isn't given much time to think through the issues I have raised, but I'm still surprised he didn't try to slow down the pace of events and consider what he was doing, and I'm also surprised he would stay with the Sith after having time to consider these issues, even if he made his initial poor choices out of frenzied emotion in the heat of a moment.)
CaptainGiladPellaeon posted:Lucas seems to treat changing allegiances as if it were synonomous with turning evil. He creates the same problem in ROTJ, in my opinion. The drama at the end of that movie seems geared around whether Luke will become Palpatine's servant, but contrary to what Palpatine says, I just don't understand how that could happen after any outcome of the second duel between Vader and Luke, at least in the immediate future. Luke might have struck down Vader, morally compromised himself, and turned to the dark side, but why would that lead him to accept Palpatine as a master? Allegorically, it works for turning evil and joining the Sith to be the same thing, but on the level of plot and character motivation, it does not work.
darth-sinister posted:Anakin stays with the Sith because deep down, he values power more than his bonds with the other Jedi. He wants to be all powerful, something that he has made clear on more than one occassion. So when he starts to cut loose with the dark side of the Force, he starts to become more and more powerful, which is what he wants. He is greedy because Palpatine has brought that out in him. That's why when he is on Mustafar, he starts talking about taking over the newly formed Empire. ANAKIN: "Don't you see, we don't have to run away anymore. I have brought peace to the Republic. I am more powerful than the Chancellor. I can overthrow him, and together you and I can rule the galaxy. Make things the way we want them to be." But before then, he weighs between the Jedi and Padme. He finds that the temptation to become capable of stopping someone from dying to be of more importance. That's why he is sitting in agony. He knows that the Jedi will kill Palpatine to end his threat and if he loses the hope Palpatine has given him, then he will lose all hope of ever saving Padme. He turns afterwards because he has nothing left. The Jedi will never forgive him for what he has done. He cannot undo the damage that he caused. All that's left is to go through with it. CaptainGiladPellaeon posted:Lucas seems to treat changing allegiances as if it were synonomous with turning evil. He creates the same problem in ROTJ, in my opinion. The drama at the end of that movie seems geared around whether Luke will become Palpatine's servant, but contrary to what Palpatine says, I just don't understand how that could happen after any outcome of the second duel between Vader and Luke, at least in the immediate future. Luke might have struck down Vader, morally compromised himself, and turned to the dark side, but why would that lead him to accept Palpatine as a master? Allegorically, it works for turning evil and joining the Sith to be the same thing, but on the level of plot and character motivation, it does not work. That's what turning to the dark side is. It's turning evil and the person becomes evil, even when they don't think that they are evil. Luke would join Palpatine because it was his belief that Luke was like Anakin. That he would want the power to protect his loved ones, in this case the newly discovered sister. And because there are no Jedi left to train him, that leaves Palpatine as the only one who can. Luke would give into the temptation of power and then kill Palpatine, before turning his own sister to the dark side and make her his Apprentice. The thing is that Luke doesn't want to be all powerful. He was raised to be selfless and as such, he could resist what his father could not. The Force is like a drug. When abused, it can turn someone around completely. Anakin abused it completely and thus became another person. Luke didn't abuse it and thus he remains the same.
owner267 posted:The fight in the movie was kinda sad...I mean, weren't all 4 that confronted Palpatine supposed to be Jedi Masters? Except for Mace, they didn't put up much of a fight. I mean, one didn't even attempt to defend himself! pathetic...
CaptainGiladPellaeon posted:Anakin is shown to want power in the prequels, but he is not represented as an amoral or immoral monster who would take power without worrying about the consequences for his friends (individual Jedi) and Padme. Quite to the contrary, he is portrayed even throughout the beginning of ROTS as obsessed with protecting those people. Obviously, he is most concerned with protecting Padme, but he even considers deviating from his mission to penetrate the Invisible Hand in order to protect clone pilots. It is this desire to be a protecter that Palpatine manipulates with his tales of power to save people from dying. Even when Anakin talks about politics, he talks about the state or the Empire as a body given exceptional powers to guard the peace, thus protecting people. What ROTS does not do for me is explain how this person who cares so much about protecting people willingly joins an organization, the Sith, that actively hunts and hurts them. (Again, I'm not saying it couldn't happen. I'm saying ROTS doesn't believably explain how it happens.) The Force is not like a drug. When Anakin and Dooku join the Sith, they do not act as if they are hypnotized or drugged. They both make conscious choices, basically in their right minds, though emotionally charged in Anakin's case.
CaptainGileadPellaeon posted:And ROTJ does not give the impression that Palpatine tempts Luke with the power to protect Leia. Vader is the only one who mentions Leia, and he mentions her in the context of going after her to replace Luke as a potential new Sith, not in the context of protecting her with the power of the dark side. That Palpatine might later offer Luke power to protect Leia, after Luke kills Vader, can be extrapolated from a watching of ROTS and ROTJ in tandem, but there is nothing in ROTJ itself about that, which makes Palpatine's temptation of Luke difficult to believe when watched.
darth-sinister posted:Palpatine knows that Luke cares for his friends and thus set up this whole endeavor in order to make Luke turn.
darth-sinister posted: Jedi Masters who are not in Palpatine's league. Only Mace, Yoda and Anakin are in Palpatine's league. He was so fast that Agen Kolar and Sasee Tinn, excellent Jedi that they are, were no match for him. Kit Fisto barely lasted.
GaptainGileadPellaeon posted:This is the part of the story that is weak, in my opinion. How will this set up make Luke change his allegiance from Jedi to Sith, which I maintain entails more than just using or being corrupted by the dark side? Palpatine never says something like, "But the dark side will give you power to save your friends, and I will teach you that power." Quite to the contrary, he gloats over the destruction of Luke's friends.