Author Topic: Dooku's allegiance mystery
CaptainGiladPellaeon  57 posts
Registered: Jun '09
7434_Gilad Pellaeon
Date Posted: 7/8 1:28pm Subject: Dooku's allegiance mystery
In his commentary on one of the deleted scenes from AOTC (Anakin and Padme's trial), Lucas said he cut the scene because it made it clear that Dooku was a villain too early in the film, and he wanted to preserve that mystery longer. I admit, I saw some spoilers before seeing AOTC, so I can't be sure whether I would have found Dooku's allegiances mysterious on a fresh viewing, but it seems pretty obvious to me from the start that he's being set up as the new bad guy, which by logical extension probably puts him in Sidious' camp, so in my opinion, there's not much of a mystery. By the time Yoda says, "The dark side I sense in you," I feel like answering, "No kidding. He just tried to drop the roof on you."

One thing the prequels lack, in my opinion, is a good mystery, like the mystery of Vader's identity in the OT. I know the potential creation of Anakin by the Sith is set up as a parallel, but for the very reason that it's too similar to the OT mystery, I don't find it sufficient. It also comes too late in the development of the prequels as a story to provide dramatic tension for me. I think Lucas could have easily added a more interesting mystery, if not one on the level of Vader's origins, by keeping Dooku's identity a secret through more of AOTC, rather than supposedly keeping his allegiance to the Sith a secret. If Lucas had written the movie that way, we would have known that some new Sith named Tyranus was gaining power through a Separatist movement, but we could have been shocked along with Obi-Wan to learn that Tyranus' identity is actually Count Dooku, his master's master. I think that would have made Dooku's temptation for Obi-Wan to join him more believable and a better parallel with Vader's invitation to Luke in ESB, because Obi-Wan would have been in a similar position to Luke. He would have been caught off balance and forced to make an unexpected decision on the spot about an important person from his past, rather than having time to gradually learn about some of Dooku's moral flaws and come to terms with his own allegiances before ever meeting Dooku face to face.

 

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EmeraldBlade  330 posts
Registered: Apr '08
21416_Atris
Date Posted: 7/8 2:06pm Subject: Dooku's allegiance mystery
I agree for the most part.

I think the movies were too short too span such a large time frame and get any real meat in.

 

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darth-sinister  43577 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Jun '01
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Date Posted: 7/8 2:28pm Subject: Dooku's allegiance mystery
CaptainGiladPellaeon posted:
One thing the prequels lack, in my opinion, is a good mystery, like the mystery of Vader's identity in the OT. I know the potential creation of Anakin by the Sith is set up as a parallel, but for the very reason that it's too similar to the OT mystery, I don't find it sufficient. It also comes too late in the development of the prequels as a story to provide dramatic tension for me. I think Lucas could have easily added a more interesting mystery, if not one on the level of Vader's origins, by keeping Dooku's identity a secret through more of AOTC, rather than supposedly keeping his allegiance to the Sith a secret. If Lucas had written the movie that way, we would have known that some new Sith named Tyranus was gaining power through a Separatist movement, but we could have been shocked along with Obi-Wan to learn that Tyranus' identity is actually Count Dooku, his master's master. I think that would have made Dooku's temptation for Obi-Wan to join him more believable and a better parallel with Vader's invitation to Luke in ESB, because Obi-Wan would have been in a similar position to Luke. He would have been caught off balance and forced to make an unexpected decision on the spot about an important person from his past, rather than having time to gradually learn about some of Dooku's moral flaws and come to terms with his own allegiances before ever meeting Dooku face to face.


There wasn't a mystery in the OT. Right up until Vader drops his bombshell, we believe that he was once a Jedi who became a Sith and killed Luke's father. Maybe if you were curious as to what Vader looked like unmasked, then you could almost call it a mystery. But really, Vader's origins weren't a mystery when you watch the OT. Not until ROTJ, when the truth of Vader's relvelation is confirmed and we're left to wonder how it happened. In AOTC, Dooku is set up as a bad guy, but that doesn't make him a Sith per say. Throughout the film, you're lead to think that Dooku and the Confederacy were opposing the Jedi and the Republic for personal reasons. Tyranus is just seen as another mystery, but one connected to the Clone Army. And then where is Darth Sidious in all of this, if you hadn't figured out that Palpatine is Sidious.

But the mystery Lucas was creating wasn't for a shocking twist, really. Rather, it was a tapresty of events that seem unconnected until the end, when we learn it is connected. You're looking at it more from someone who was slightly spoiled and not someone on the outside looking in with fresh eyes. He wasn't going to hit you the same way "I am your father" did.

 

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CaptainGiladPellaeon  57 posts
Registered: Jun '09
7434_Gilad Pellaeon
Date Posted: 7/9 3:53pm Subject: Dooku's allegiance mystery
I admit I used the word mystery loosely. Vader's identity is not a mystery in the style of a murder mystery. The audience and the characters do not begin the story aware that they are looking for a specific piece of witheld information, nor does the bulk of the plot consist of uncovering clues and eliminating false leads. But we don't know who Vader is, and when we find out, he's not who we thought he was. Surprise may be a better term than mystery, I guess. Either way, the PT does not have a similar dramatic device, and I think it is less compelling as a result.

I never considered Sidious' identity a mystery, not because of spoilers, but because I already knew from pre-PT EU that the Emperor's name was Palpatine, and Sidious looks like the Emperor and has the Emperor's unseen, eerie choir at his disposal, so the connections seemed obvious to me, but then, I do know one person who had seen the OT but was not that interested in Star Wars who watched TPM without picking up on Sidious' identity, so mysteries do depend on our own point of view, as Obi-Wan might observe.

 

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DarthBoba  33045 posts
Registered: Jun '00
8187_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 7/9 4:18pm Subject: Dooku's allegiance mystery
He found out who Vader was originally in the first twenty minutes of ANH or so. Then we found out he was somebody else out of the blue in the next movie. It's not like 2/3rds of ANH and TESB is devoted to the fact that Vader has a dual identity.

 

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EmeraldBlade  330 posts
Registered: Apr '08
21416_Atris
Date Posted: 7/10 3:07pm Subject: Dooku's allegiance mystery
For me, Darth Vader himself was enough of a mystery, and I watched the classic trilogy as a teen.

Who is Darth Vader? What is Darth Vader? Why does he serve the Emperor? What is with the suit? etc.

When it was reveled that he was Luke's father, that just raised more questions.

Great stuff.

 

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Winston_Sith  1230 posts
Registered: Apr '04
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Date Posted: 7/11 2:09pm Subject: Dooku's allegiance mystery
I heard audible gasps from the crowd on several occasions when I saw AOTC in theaters, as Dooku high-tailed it off of Geonosis to jet back to Coruscant on his solar-sailor, got out and walked up to meet... Darth Sidious.

 

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darth-sinister  43577 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Jun '01
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Date Posted: 7/11 5:14pm Subject: Dooku's allegiance mystery
Ah, but not everyone knew that the Emperor's name was Palpatine. For whatever reason, whether intentional or otherwise, Lucas never credited him as Emperor Palpatine in TESB and ROTJ. Just by his title. So when people who weren't like us saw the PT, they didn't quite catch on that Senator Palpatine was really Darth Sidious. Not so much in TPM. Maybe more in AOTC, but by ROTS, they had figured it out. So in that way, it was a surprise for those who didn't get that Palpatine didn't look like crap all the time. Yellow eyes, crinkly butt forehead and pale skin. The voice might've clued them in, but McDiarmid didn't sound old and evil when he was Palpatine.

That said, Lucas wasn't quite going for the same type of revelation like with Vader, when he did this one. Palpatine was the closest and that was more like with Yoda and Obi-wan.

 

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GARTH_MAUL  8362 posts
Title: LACWAC Manager & White Wizard
Registered: May '02
48381_Luminara (508092)
Date Posted: 7/11 6:22pm Subject: Dooku's allegiance mystery
I always wished Lucas had come up with the idea of Dooku in TPM; he could have even just been mentioned by name (a la the Emperor in ANH) and it might have been enough.

The concept of a disaffected Jedi Master who was sick and tired of the Jedi Council and the Republic in general is a fascinating one.

I really enjoyed how Dooku was trying to either get Jedi to join his side, or at least not fight in the war in the SW:Republic comics.

 

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Winston_Sith  1230 posts
Registered: Apr '04
19356_TIE Formation
Date Posted: 7/12 12:05am Subject: Dooku's allegiance mystery
Yes, Perhaps having even a brief mention by Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon or even Yoda/Windu of this Dooku guy who was rattling his lightsaber, threatening to leave the Order b/c he thought the Jedi Council was corrupt would have been doable. However, TPM was supposed, I think, to show the Jedi Order in a good light, with the 'corruption' thing waiting to be explored in later episodes.

 

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Dark--Helmet  295 posts
Registered: Apr '03
6456_Yoda - Concentraaaate!
Date Posted: 7/12 7:06am Subject: Dooku's allegiance mystery
CaptainGiladPellaeon posted:
In his commentary on one of the deleted scenes from AOTC (Anakin and Padme's trial), Lucas said he cut the scene because it made it clear that Dooku was a villain too early in the film, and he wanted to preserve that mystery longer. I admit, I saw some spoilers before seeing AOTC, so I can't be sure whether I would have found Dooku's allegiances mysterious on a fresh viewing, but it seems pretty obvious to me from the start that he's being set up as the new bad guy, which by logical extension probably puts him in Sidious' camp, so in my opinion, there's not much of a mystery. By the time Yoda says, "The dark side I sense in you," I feel like answering, "No kidding. He just tried to drop the roof on you."

One thing the prequels lack, in my opinion, is a good mystery, like the mystery of Vader's identity in the OT. I know the potential creation of Anakin by the Sith is set up as a parallel, but for the very reason that it's too similar to the OT mystery, I don't find it sufficient. It also comes too late in the development of the prequels as a story to provide dramatic tension for me. I think Lucas could have easily added a more interesting mystery, if not one on the level of Vader's origins, by keeping Dooku's identity a secret through more of AOTC, rather than supposedly keeping his allegiance to the Sith a secret. If Lucas had written the movie that way, we would have known that some new Sith named Tyranus was gaining power through a Separatist movement, but we could have been shocked along with Obi-Wan to learn that Tyranus' identity is actually Count Dooku, his master's master. I think that would have made Dooku's temptation for Obi-Wan to join him more believable and a better parallel with Vader's invitation to Luke in ESB, because Obi-Wan would have been in a similar position to Luke. He would have been caught off balance and forced to make an unexpected decision on the spot about an important person from his past, rather than having time to gradually learn about some of Dooku's moral flaws and come to terms with his own allegiances before ever meeting Dooku face to face.



Yeah,your right,everything about it painted Dooku a villain.Him being mysterious to begin with,the villains in the movies are the Sith,dark clothing,Chris Lee playing him etc etc.


You would have to be pretty slow not to catch on that Sid and Senator Palp are the same in TPM.It's not even a mystery,master apprentice line, pans in on Palps face.Not to mention you can tell it's the same actor buy the voice and face.

 

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DarthBoba  33045 posts
Registered: Jun '00
8187_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 7/12 7:18am Subject: Dooku's allegiance mystery
Hey, it sure tricked all those people who thought one of them was a clone. tongue

 

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lovelucas  2099 posts
Registered: Mar '04
19980_Lucasfilm
Date Posted: 7/12 10:13am Subject: Dooku's allegiance mystery
GARTH_MAUL posted:
I always wished Lucas had come up with the idea of Dooku in TPM; he could have even just been mentioned by name (a la the Emperor in ANH) and it might have been enough.


But then would there be a problem with the rule of two since TPM was all about the two being Palps and Darth Maul? Or are you saying Dooku could have been mentioned in TPM as a disaffected Jedi, not yet turned to the Dark Side?

 

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DarthBoba  33045 posts
Registered: Jun '00
8187_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 7/12 10:16am Subject: Dooku's allegiance mystery
Well-there's a sort of copout clause in the EU that separates 'Dark Jedi' and Sith Lords as being different, mainly because of secrets the Sith have access to. I suppose the difference might be lost on audiences, but it's debatable how much they'd actually care about the rule of two not being rigidly followed. tongue

 

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darth-sinister  43577 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
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Date Posted: 7/12 2:49pm Subject: Dooku's allegiance mystery
Dark--Helmet posted:
You would have to be pretty slow not to catch on that Sid and Senator Palp are the same in TPM.It's not even a mystery,master apprentice line, pans in on Palps face.Not to mention you can tell it's the same actor buy the voice and face.


I know a few people who didn't know that going into TPM, much less coming out. Ian McDiarmid is not as well known in the US as he is in the UK and Europe. Some thought that it was an older actor wearing some make-up.

 

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Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
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CaptainGiladPellaeon  57 posts
Registered: Jun '09
7434_Gilad Pellaeon
Date Posted: 7/13 12:47am Subject: Dooku's allegiance mystery
I would have liked a mention of Dooku or even an appearance by him in TPM (just as I think Grievous should have been shown or at least mentioned in AOTC). With Dooku, as with Grievous, the idea is interesting but feels underdeveloped to me. One way I think Dooku could have been better developed is through the identity mystery I suggested in my initial post, but other ways of developing him could have worked, too. As it is, Dooku and Grievous not only fail as characters for me but diminish the PT because the lack of (meaningful) time taken with these characters makes the whole three movie story arc feel less cohesive and unified. I feel like Lucas didn't know where he was going with Dooku when he made TPM, or else mentioning Qui-Gon's master who would later have a pivotal role in the plot would have made too much sense not to do.

 

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