Author Topic: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
voodoopuuduu  6846 posts
Title: Classic Trilogy Trivia Host
Registered: Mar '04
48595_Chewbacca Brian
Date Posted: 2/26/07 11:02am Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
But he WOULD lose 30% of his potential power...If you lose cells, you lose midis.

70% of the original would still have to be more than 2X Yoda.
YODA: Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hm?


SithStarSlayer posted:
Right on point Rossa!
The Dark Lord Novel states that a Sith Lord's truest power resides in their will.
I like that idea a whole lot more than counting energizer-bunny-mitochondria!



Yeah, plus it would somewhat tie into the Padme lost the will to live scenario.

 

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SithStarSlayer  8619 posts
Registered: Oct '03
40005_Quinlan Vos
Date Posted: 2/26/07 11:12am Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
voodoopuuduu posted:
But he WOULD lose 30% of his potential power...If you lose cells, you lose midis.

70% of the original would still have to be more than 2X Yoda.
YODA: Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hm?


SithStarSlayer posted:
Right on point Rossa!
The Dark Lord Novel states that a Sith Lord's truest power resides in their will.
I like that idea a whole lot more than counting energizer-bunny-mitochondria!



Yeah, plus it would somewhat tie into the Padme lost the will to live scenario.


Good point.

 

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Arawn_Fenn  10330 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 3/7/07 9:06pm Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
voodoopuuduu posted:
We all knew what was going to happen to Anakin for a long time, but this idea was originally not a part of it. In a 2003 issue of Insider, the issue of OT Anakin vs. PT Anakin was brought up ( in Pablo's Q+A section ). Notably, at that point in time, the difference is portrayed as an issue of agility and lightsaber fighting skill. A loss of power in the Force is not mentioned at all.




GL should have left it at that.


Well, in a way, he did, unless one clings to the Vanity Fair incident.

Here's an exact quote from the Insider I mentioned ( I added some underlining for emphasis ):

"In The Empire Strikes Back, Luke gives Darth Vader a serious fight. By the time of Return of the Jedi, he barely breaks a sweat battling Vader. Why? As Anakin is the Chosen One and essentially a creation of the Force, Luke cannot be stronger. Anakin would be a far more experienced swordsman. What explains Luke's remarkable ability to challenge the most feared Sith Lord in the galaxy?"

(I'm skipping a paragraph)
"If you asked George Lucas about the outcome of the duel, he'd likely say it's what the story needed. For those craving a more specific explanation, keep in mind that Lucas has said that we've never seen true Jedi fighting in the original trilogy. In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films. As Vader, Anakin is more machine than man, and being a half-droid construct has seriously hampered his lightsaber prowess. Luke, though not as skillful or acrobatic as the young Jedi of the prequels, is still a formidable opponent, and he is very strong in the Force."

 

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Arawn_Fenn  10330 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 3/7/07 9:23pm Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
Rossa83 posted:
Anakin had, according to Lucas, 200% of Palpatine's power. He lost approximately 30% of his body mass on mustfar, but surprise surprise, he is in the OT only 80% of Palpatine's power. He should still be above Palpatine in terms of power after Mustafar - 140-150% or so

Lucas talked himself away from the Midchlorian explanation by quoting the 80%, which sounds about accurate from the movies...


I'm looking at Mustafar as an issue of level limitation ( to put it in video game or RPG terms ) and not an issue of lost power in the Force.

There is a good reason for this level limitation to exist! Anakin being the Chosen One begs the question of why Anakin did not destroy Sidious sometime between ROTS and ROTJ.

Losing a part of your body mass does not affect your midichlorian count. On the other hand, it was never said that a midichlorian count is the sole determinant of strength in the Force. It is implied in TPM that Yoda has a very high midichlorian count, but he is also the character with the greatest amount of years of experience with using the Force.

 

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Jedsithor  1193 posts
Registered: Oct '05
39838_Anakin
Date Posted: 3/7/07 9:46pm Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
The only thing that bugged me about the midichlorians was the obvious "let's explain it to the audience" moment in TPM where Anakin asks Qui-Gon what they are. I think that it would have been much better with the initial talk of midichlorians between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. At that time, I just assumed that they were a way to tell how strong a person was in the Force...I didn't need to know more.

In Star trek, the warp drive works because of dilithium crystals...in Star wars, the hyperdrive works because...it just works, there's no need to explain it. It's the same with midichlorians..a mention is fine, but there's no need for explanations.

Now then as for the whole Mustafar thing. I always just figured that Vader was had the power, he just didn't have the means to use it. The suit restricted his movements and abilities...it had nothing to do with how strong he was in the Force. After all, throughout ROTS, Anakin had a mechanical arm...so alrady he would have had less power than he should, right? Yet he says his power has doubled since the last time he fought Dooku. Has Anakin suddenly grown a foot taller or something to make up for the loss of midichlorians in his arm?

How many cells do human beings have? millions? I dunno...but Obi-Wan said that Anakin had over 20,000...so lets take that number as a ballpark figure...wouldn't that mean that not every cell had a midichlorian? He could have them in his torso but not in his arms for example...so losing his limbs wouldn't automatically mean that he lost midichlorians and Force ability.

 

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LordVader66  1797 posts
Registered: Aug '05
22821_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 3/7/07 10:09pm Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
voodoopuuduu posted:
[b]We all knew what was going to happen to Anakin for a long time, but this idea was originally not a part of it. In a 2003 issue of Insider, the issue of OT Anakin vs. PT Anakin was brought up ( in Pablo's Q+A section ). Notably, at that point in time, the difference is portrayed as an issue of agility and lightsaber fighting skill. A loss of power in the Force is not mentioned at all.


Interesting. I think it's fairly obvious to all though that Anakin had to have his potential curbed or we'd be hearing about Emperor Vader in the OT.

Rossa83 posted:
Anakin had, according to Lucas, 200% of Palpatine's power. He lost approximately 30% of his body mass on mustfar, but surprise surprise, he is in the OT only 80% of Palpatine's power. He should still be above Palpatine in terms of power after Mustafar - 140-150% or so

Lucas talked himself away from the Midchlorian explanation by quoting the 80%, which sounds about accurate from the movies...


I completely agree.

Arawn_Fenn posted:
I'm looking at Mustafar as an issue of level limitation ( to put it in video game or RPG terms ) and not an issue of lost power in the Force.


I once looked at it like this a well. But in the RotS novel, right after Anakin is put into the suit, he can already feel a loss of power. If his potential is simply curbed, then he should still feel the same, powerwise. Then in the Dark Lord novel, it tells us that Vader still has the oppertunity to gain all of his potential through the dark side.

Arawn_Fenn posted:
There is a good reason for this level limitation to exist! Anakin being the Chosen One begs the question of why Anakin did not destroy Sidious sometime between ROTS and ROTJ.


The real question is did Anakin believe he was the Chosen One? I can't believe he actually did. Because if he did, it was his destiny to destroy the Emperor and telling Luke to do would make no sense. Plus, really, in any duel or attempt to murder Sidious, the Force would be with him. It doesn't seem possible that Vader could die until he completed his destiny. So, even in the suit, it seems like he could have murdered Palpatine. But he doesn't seem to believe that he's the Chosen One anymore.


 

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LordVader66  1797 posts
Registered: Aug '05
22821_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 3/7/07 10:21pm Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
Jedsithor posted:


Now then as for the whole Mustafar thing. I always just figured that Vader was had the power, he just didn't have the means to use it. The suit restricted his movements and abilities...it had nothing to do with how strong he was in the Force. After all, throughout ROTS, Anakin had a mechanical arm...so alrady he would have had less power than he should, right? Yet he says his power has doubled since the last time he fought Dooku. Has Anakin suddenly grown a foot taller or something to make up for the loss of midichlorians in his arm?

The suit limited his movement in lightsaber combat, but that was it. I believe he had to learn an entirely new form of lightsaber combat to protect his life support on his chest. In Dark Lord, Vader murders a Jedi Master and feels that the suit no longer hinders him due to the power of the dark side. And OT Vader doesn't seem uncomfortable in the thing either. He looks pretty graceful dueling Luke as well. Going by Lucas's defination, I would agree that losing his limb to Dooku was curb some of his potential, but it isn't really mentioned.

How many cells do human beings have? millions? I dunno...but Obi-Wan said that Anakin had over 20,000...so lets take that number as a ballpark figure...wouldn't that mean that not every cell had a midichlorian? He could have them in his torso but not in his arms for example...so losing his limbs wouldn't automatically mean that he lost midichlorians and Force ability.



The reading is over 20,000 midiclorians per cell. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe humans have trillons of cells. Whoever says that Vader should have had his potential limted to only 150% of Sidious seems to be correct. But, at the same time, Vader would murder Sidious and the OT would be messed up and as a film, it isn't as interesting. So, really I think Lucas wanted to use the midichlorians to show us that Anakin has the Force with him like no other, but really blew it when he used the midis as a gateway to the Force.

 

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darth-sinister  43577 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
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Date Posted: 3/7/07 11:18pm Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
As I've said, it is about the sum whole of the individual. The more Anakin loses of his physical form, the less his connection is to the Force. Regardless of what is left of his body, it's still not as much as it was. You need every square inch of your body, from being like Yoda to being a Wookiee, in order to reach your full potential. Remove one part and there is a diminishing of the whole.

Take the human brain, for example. Fascinating thing, the brain. We know how it functions. But say something happens and you need part of your brain removed. Now depending on the degree of trauma, the brain will ultimately "rewire" itself to compensate for the loss of graymatter. In some cases, you lose certain things that can never be "rewired" properly. If at all. You can still function, depending on the trauma, but there will be noticable differences. Now, with a 100% whole brain, we can be at our peak so to speak. But take some away and there will be some changes. This is kinda like that. Vader can still function as a Sith Lord, but the absence of his limbs and the burns has resulted in a diminishing of potential.

I know, that's poorly worded and not a perfect analogy. But I think you get my point.

 

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Jedsithor  1193 posts
Registered: Oct '05
39838_Anakin
Date Posted: 3/7/07 11:41pm Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
"luminous beings are we...not this crude matter" - Master Yoda

The problem with the idea of losing power because he lost limbs is that he actually gained power after he lost his right arm in AOTC "my powers have double since last time we met Count."

 

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SithStarSlayer  8619 posts
Registered: Oct '03
40005_Quinlan Vos
Date Posted: 3/8/07 3:15pm Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Rossa83 posted:
Anakin had, according to Lucas, 200% of Palpatine's power. He lost approximately 30% of his body mass on mustfar, but surprise surprise, he is in the OT only 80% of Palpatine's power. He should still be above Palpatine in terms of power after Mustafar - 140-150% or so

Lucas talked himself away from the Midchlorian explanation by quoting the 80%, which sounds about accurate from the movies...


I'm looking at Mustafar as an issue of level limitation ( to put it in video game or RPG terms ) and not an issue of lost power in the Force.

There is a good reason for this level limitation to exist! Anakin being the Chosen One begs the question of why Anakin did not destroy Sidious sometime between ROTS and ROTJ.

Losing a part of your body mass does not affect your midichlorian count. On the other hand, it was never said that a midichlorian count is the sole determinant of strength in the Force. It is implied in TPM that Yoda has a very high midichlorian count, but he is also the character with the greatest amount of years of experience with using the Force.



How can that be? The cells contain the midi's right? A hand (body mass as you called it) or a leg contains the cells right? If one loses a limb, that means they lose the cells within the limb and thus they would lose those midichlorians within those cells. The rest of the body would remain the same, that person would still have the exact same midichlorian count in each cell as before.

They would just have less midichlorians to work with than they did before losing the limb. The count per cell does not change, but the amount of midichlorians would be reduced by removing limbs... hence Vader being a shadow of his former potential.

 

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AL_Patterson  444 posts
Registered: Feb '07
8012_Lucas & Star Wars
Date Posted: 3/8/07 3:23pm Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread - Date Edited: 3/8/07 3:24pm (1 edits total) Edited By: AL_Patterson
Who is Anakin's father? His mother said he just appeared in her belly, but did Sids use the mids to help create him? Or is that still a complete mystery.

Or did Sids bang Shmee tongue

 

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Nordom  878 posts
Registered: Jun '04
8041_Christopher Lee
Date Posted: 3/9/07 6:17am Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread

darth-sinister posted:
As I've said, it is about the sum whole of the individual. The more Anakin loses of his physical form, the less his connection is to the Force. Regardless of what is left of his body, it's still not as much as it was. You need every square inch of your body, from being like Yoda to being a Wookiee, in order to reach your full potential. Remove one part and there is a diminishing of the whole.


But take Luke and Anakin in ESB and AotC respectively, at the end of empire Luke looses a hand and at the end of clones Anakin looses an arm. So by this logic both Luke and Anakin would be diminished in therms of force power.
But as we see, both Anakin and Luke are MORE powerfull in the next film, RotS and RotJ so your analogy does not match what we see in the films.


Darth-Sinister posted:
Take the human brain, for example. Fascinating thing, the brain. We know how it functions. But say something happens and you need part of your brain removed. Now depending on the degree of trauma, the brain will ultimately "rewire" itself to compensate for the loss of graymatter. In some cases, you lose certain things that can never be "rewired" properly. If at all. You can still function, depending on the trauma, but there will be noticable differences. Now, with a 100% whole brain, we can be at our peak so to speak. But take some away and there will be some changes. This is kinda like that. Vader can still function as a Sith Lord, but the absence of his limbs and the burns has resulted in a diminishing of potential.


But take a thing like your appendix, (I hope I got the name right), which can be removed from the body without any ill effects and you will never know it is gone. But for a jedi, the removal of their appendix would mean force diminishment and a loss of power.

AS to the concept of the midis, I do not think they worked well in the films and did not add anything much to the films and instead made some things confusing and explained other things that did not need explaining.

I do not think it was neccesary to make Anakin into this uber jedi, that he has more midis than anyone and he would be more powerfull that anyone. It just muddles things up and then we have GL having to explain that in the suit Anakin is 80% of the emperor and that is why he has not killed Palpatine yet and so on. Why all this?
Simply have Anakin as a gifted and unusually strong jedi but not this force god thing and skip the midis.
Simply have Qui-Gon being able to sense the force in Anakin and that he is suprised that he feels it so stronlgy from someone that has not been trained.
Then with Palpatine you could simply have him say that Plageious used the force to create life and not invlove the midis at all.
As for why the force runs in families, that concept worked fine in the OT without any problem and would not be a problem now.

Regards
Nordom

 

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SithStarSlayer  8619 posts
Registered: Oct '03
40005_Quinlan Vos
Date Posted: 3/9/07 10:09am Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread

Nordom posted:
AS to the concept of the midis, I do not think they worked well in the films and did not add anything much to the films and instead made some things confusing and explained other things that did not need explaining.



QFT...

 

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darth-sinister  43577 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Jun '01
24181_Palpatine Hologram
Date Posted: 3/9/07 11:57am Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
Jedsithor posted:
"luminous beings are we...not this crude matter" - Master Yoda

The problem with the idea of losing power because he lost limbs is that he actually gained power after he lost his right arm in AOTC "my powers have double since last time we met Count."


First, Yoda isn't wrong when he says this. The Jedi don't care about physical power. The Sith do care, on the other hand. Which takes us to point two. See Anakin isn't exactly a good Jedi here. He's boasting about being more powerful. While he has trained harder since their last encounter, Anakin's also been using his anger and hate. So he's kinda been cheating such as when he fought Ventress and when he defeats Dooku.

Nordom posted:
But take Luke and Anakin in ESB and AotC respectively, at the end of empire Luke looses a hand and at the end of clones Anakin looses an arm. So by this logic both Luke and Anakin would be diminished in therms of force power.
But as we see, both Anakin and Luke are MORE powerfull in the next film, RotS and RotJ so your analogy does not match what we see in the films.


The damage that he takes on Mustafar is far more catastrophic than on Geonosis. Anakin, like Luke, can still reach his potential by losing one limb. They're slightly diminished, yet can still be very powerful. But losing more limbs and suffering third degree burns, like Anakin does, diminishes Anakin's ability to move beyond Palpatine. He's a shadow of his former self. He can only reach the level of Dooku. Luke is more powerful than Vader, because he's not in the same condition as his father. Luke has lost only one hand. Vader has lost four limbs and was severely burned.

Nordom posted:
But take a thing like your appendix, (I hope I got the name right), which can be removed from the body without any ill effects and you will never know it is gone. But for a jedi, the removal of their appendix would mean force diminishment and a loss of power.


Yes, you got both the body part and the analogy right. In the case of the "appendix", it's a small dimishment. Same with Luke's hand and Anakin's forearm. Take away a larger amount of the body and you've got more problems. A Jedi can function without an arm or a leg. It doesn't matter to them. Power does not matter. Only knowledge. To a Sith Lord who is power hungry, the 100% whole is better than damaged goods. That's why Palpatine wants to dump Vader like a bad habit.

Nordom posted:
AS to the concept of the midis, I do not think they worked well in the films and did not add anything much to the films and instead made some things confusing and explained other things that did not need explaining.


We've got a lot out of them. How the Jedi recruited, how one can become powerful and Anakin's origin debate.

Nordom posted:
I do not think it was neccesary to make Anakin into this uber jedi, that he has more midis than anyone and he would be more powerfull that anyone. It just muddles things up and then we have GL having to explain that in the suit Anakin is 80% of the emperor and that is why he has not killed Palpatine yet and so on. Why all this?
Simply have Anakin as a gifted and unusually strong jedi but not this force god thing and skip the midis.
Simply have Qui-Gon being able to sense the force in Anakin and that he is suprised that he feels it so stronlgy from someone that has not been trained.
Then with Palpatine you could simply have him say that Plageious used the force to create life and not invlove the midis at all.
As for why the force runs in families, that concept worked fine in the OT without any problem and would not be a problem now.

Regards
Nordom


It's always been bloodlines. Lucas just put it together thanks to the discovery of Mitochondria (sp). Anakin's power potential has to do with why Darth Sidious wants him, more than what Anakin does in the films. It gives us a better understanding, since any strong Force user would work. It quantifies things.

 

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Rossa83  2960 posts
Registered: Sep '05
6189_Yoda
Date Posted: 3/9/07 1:38pm Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
darth-sinister posted:
As I've said, it is about the sum whole of the individual. The more Anakin loses of his physical form, the less his connection is to the Force. Regardless of what is left of his body, it's still not as much as it was. You need every square inch of your body, from being like Yoda to being a Wookiee, in order to reach your full potential. Remove one part and there is a diminishing of the whole.



But this simply isn't true Sinister. Re-watch TPM. Qui-Gon clearly states that midis reside in your cells. We're symbiotic with them. As the training evolves, Anakin will learn to listen to them.

Then follow Yoda's quote: "we're not this crude matter" (loose quote)

Midis reside in the cells as it is explained in the movies. Qui-Gon takes a small drop of blood and gets it analysed, where the analysing machine states that it contains more than 20,000 - surely this can't be a number for the entire body. If it is an estimate, is Anakin the perfect benchmark in terms of body mass for a midi count? happy

 

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