Author Topic: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
SithStarSlayer  8619 posts
Registered: Oct '03
40005_Quinlan Vos
Date Posted: 3/9/07 5:35pm Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread - Date Edited: 3/9/07 6:01pm (2 edits total) Edited By: SithStarSlayer
Anakin had 20,000 midichlorians per cell in his head and neck.
Anakin had 20,000 midichlorians per cell in his torso.
Anakin had 20,000 midichlorians per cell in his left hand and forearm.
Anakin had 20,000 midichlorians per cell in his left elbo to torso. (shoulder)
Anakin had no right hand and forearm.
Anakin had 20,000 midichlorians per cell in his right elbo to torso. (shoulder)
Anakin had 20,000 midichlorians per cell in his left foot and shin.
Anakin had 20,000 midichlorians per cell in his left knee to torso. (hip)
Anakin had 20,000 midichlorians per cell in his right foot and shin.
Anakin had 20,000 midichlorians per cell in his right knee to torso. (hip)




Add up all of the human parts and Anakin had {{180,000}} out of {{200,000}} potential before Mustafar.
(-20,00 for the arm he lost)





Vader had no left hand and forearm. -20,0000.
Vader had no left foot, shin or knee and was missing some of the thigh. -25,0000.
Vader had no right foot, shin or kneeand was missing some of the thigh. -25,000.
Vader suffered damage to his skin, lungs etc. -15,000.




Vader had {{95,000}} out of his original {{200,000}} potential, the rest were mechanical replacement parts... hence Kenobi being right when he said Vader was more machine than man. But because he still had 20,000 midichlorians per cell in his remaining body parts, his connection to the force would still be higher than the average Jedi. There was just less of Vader to connect to the Force.



 

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Sinnion  531 posts
Registered: Sep '06
6893_Atari 2600, ESB
Date Posted: 3/9/07 5:48pm Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
You know I don't think body parts had any effect on your ability to connect with the Force. Sure Vader was rusty physically but I think his ability in the force was even stronger by the OT.

 

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darth-sinister  43577 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Jun '01
24181_Palpatine Hologram
Date Posted: 3/9/07 11:07pm Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
Rossa83 posted:
darth-sinister posted:
As I've said, it is about the sum whole of the individual. The more Anakin loses of his physical form, the less his connection is to the Force. Regardless of what is left of his body, it's still not as much as it was. You need every square inch of your body, from being like Yoda to being a Wookiee, in order to reach your full potential. Remove one part and there is a diminishing of the whole.



But this simply isn't true Sinister. Re-watch TPM. Qui-Gon clearly states that midis reside in your cells. We're symbiotic with them. As the training evolves, Anakin will learn to listen to them.

Then follow Yoda's quote: "we're not this crude matter" (loose quote)

Midis reside in the cells as it is explained in the movies. Qui-Gon takes a small drop of blood and gets it analysed, where the analysing machine states that it contains more than 20,000 - surely this can't be a number for the entire body. If it is an estimate, is Anakin the perfect benchmark in terms of body mass for a midi count? happy


Still doesn't matter. Look at SSS's analysis. It's roughly what I'm saying.

Sinnion posted:
You know I don't think body parts had any effect on your ability to connect with the Force. Sure Vader was rusty physically but I think his ability in the force was even stronger by the OT.


No, that had to do with having his spine being with cybernetics. As well as wearing a forty pound suit with a helmet that restricts movement. Vader was never rusty as he killed a number of Jedi following ROTS to before ANH. "Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader", "Last Of The Jedi", "Purge", "The Dark Times", "In His Image", "The Force Unleashed", "Darth Vader: Extinction" and "Resurrection". So rust was not an issue. His suit and spinal fusion are why. But his power was still not great. He could never become the demigod Palpatine wanted of him. He could never be powerful enough on his own to defeat him. He would always be an inferior product. Damaged goods. A pile of crap on two legs. But Luke could be that.

 

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LordVader66  1797 posts
Registered: Aug '05
22821_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 3/9/07 11:33pm Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
darth-sinister posted:

No, that had to do with having his spine being with cybernetics. As well as wearing a forty pound suit with a helmet that restricts movement. Vader was never rusty as he killed a number of Jedi following ROTS to before ANH. "Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader", "Last Of The Jedi", "Purge", "The Dark Times", "In His Image", "The Force Unleashed", "Darth Vader: Extinction" and "Resurrection". So rust was not an issue. His suit and spinal fusion are why. But his power was still not great. He could never become the demigod Palpatine wanted of him. He could never be powerful enough on his own to defeat him. He would always be an inferior product. Damaged goods. A pile of crap on two legs. But Luke could be that.


Whoa. 'A pile of crap on two legs'? I'm very surprised to see that comment from a guy that's pretty well versed in all matters of SW. Certainly, he defeat on Mustafar CURBED his potential, but he still became 80% as powerful as Palpatine. So, 'A pile of crap on two legs' is waaay off base. Vader was useful and served Palpatine and the Empire well. And I believe the above poster was refering to his growth of power between the PT and OT, not his phyiscal power, which is true. Vader became more powerful over the course of time, without a doubt.


SithStarSlayer posted:
Anakin had 20,000 midichlorians per cell in his head and neck.
Anakin had 20,000 midichlorians per cell in his torso.
Anakin had 20,000 midichlorians per cell in his left hand and forearm.
Anakin had 20,000 midichlorians per cell in his left elbo to torso. (shoulder)
Anakin had no right hand and forearm.
Anakin had 20,000 midichlorians per cell in his right elbo to torso. (shoulder)
Anakin had 20,000 midichlorians per cell in his left foot and shin.
Anakin had 20,000 midichlorians per cell in his left knee to torso. (hip)
Anakin had 20,000 midichlorians per cell in his right foot and shin.
Anakin had 20,000 midichlorians per cell in his right knee to torso. (hip)




Add up all of the human parts and Anakin had {{180,000}} out of {{200,000}} potential before Mustafar.
(-20,00 for the arm he lost)





Vader had no left hand and forearm. -20,0000.
Vader had no left foot, shin or knee and was missing some of the thigh. -25,0000.
Vader had no right foot, shin or kneeand was missing some of the thigh. -25,000.
Vader suffered damage to his skin, lungs etc. -15,000.




Vader had {{95,000}} out of his original {{200,000}} potential, the rest were mechanical replacement parts... hence Kenobi being right when he said Vader was more machine than man. But because he still had 20,000 midichlorians per cell in his remaining body parts, his connection to the force would still be higher than the average Jedi. There was just less of Vader to connect to the Force.



I really don't get what your trying to do here. Scientists to this day are unsure of how many total number of cells a human has. The estimates are between 10 to 100 trillion total cells. Plus, it's different for everyone because cells are being destroyed and created. So Anakin has 20,000 midichlorians for everyone of his cells. Now, going by Obiwan's statement that Anakin is more machine than man, would mean that at least 51% of him is the suit. Now Anakin's potential is 200% of Palpatine. Say Anakin is indeed 51% machine, then his potential should be that he becomes equal to Palpatine. But, as Lucas says, he only becomes 80% of Palpatine. So that would mean an astounding 60% of Anakin is machine. But we don't know how midichlorians work. this is the problem. Do they work like a lightbulb? The more midichlorians you lose, the harder it is to "see" the Force(like if you went down in watts)? Or, that since Anakin has 40% of his body, and their are still 20,000 midis in all those cells, so he relative connection to the Force is the same. From what we see in the films, it appears to be the former. But the problem remains, there is no chance is hell that Anakin is 60% man. We all saw him go into the suit and he is NOT 60% machine. Also, when Anakin lost his arm, it doesn't appear that his potential was curbed. Everyone still talked about twice as powerful as Palpatine stuff. If he lost midis in the arm, then were talking what? A 10%-15% loss of potential in the Force? It doesn't add up.


 

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Rossa83  2960 posts
Registered: Sep '05
6189_Yoda
Date Posted: 3/10/07 3:12am Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
Nope. Qui-Gon and partly Yoda are the only references we have to an explanation of the Midis. QG explicitly states that they reside in your cells - not in your body, which is supported by Yoda. You may try to argue for Lucas' sake, but the fact is that it doesn't add up. How could they know that Anakin had a midi count of 20,000 out of a drop of blood? As I said above, was he the perfect benchmark? (he was too old, so that couldn't be)

Even if the body parts should matter, Ankin didn't lose over 50% of his body mass at Mustafar, and why didn't we see a decrease in his powers after he lost his arm fighting Dooku? Sideous should have been pissed at Dooku for ruining Anakin's potential!!

 

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Green_Destiny_Sword  4358 posts
Registered: Jun '01
Date Posted: 3/10/07 6:44am Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
none of these mathematical equations even close to making sense. GL screwed the Force up for good with the midis. It's obvious. The 20,000 number was dumb. Even if Anakin lost a limb, he should still be more powerful than any Jedi ever. But instead he's a clown.

But that explanation doesn't do THE FILMS justice.

QUI-GON
Midi-chlorians are a microcopic
lifeform that reside within all living
cells and communicates with the Force.



QUI-GON
Life forms living together for mutual
advantage. Without the midi-chlorians,
life could not exist, and we would
have no knowledge of the Force. They
continually speak to you, telling
you the will of the Force.

ANAKIN
They do??

QUI-GON
When you learn to quiet your mind,
you will hear them speaking to you.

ANAKIN
I don't understand.

QUI-GON
With time and training, Annie...you
will.



From what the actual FILMS say, the midis are not a measure of one's power. They are merely a conduit through which one hears the "Will of The Force" (whatever that means). They are not "Force batteries" or anything of that sort. So Anakin's loss of a limb or limbs would only mean that he cannot hear the Force as well as he used to. He would still have the same power level.

This is further complcated when one considers that going by THE FILM's explantion, a Sith does not need midichlorians at all. A Sith does not listen to the Will of the Force, so a high midi-count is not even necessary (it is interesting to note that GL could have said that this is why the Dark Side is "quicker". Since a Sith is amoral and self-serving there is no delay in power that comes with following the Force's intended path for one's self. But he never said this). So Anakin as Darth Vader really doesn't need his midi's.

Of course ultimately, this is all a pretty weatered down, weak explanation for how the Force works. I have no idea why GL went this route. But now that he is done it, we might as well have an accurate discussion based on what "the maker" has written.

 

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Rossa83  2960 posts
Registered: Sep '05
6189_Yoda
Date Posted: 3/10/07 6:51am Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
Green_Destiny_Sword posted:


Of course ultimately, this is all a pretty weatered down, weak explanation for how the Force works. I have no idea why GL went this route. But now that he is done it, we might as well have an accurate discussion based on what "the maker" has written.


I agree. There is little use discussing what he intended when we are going by the films - although that is surely interesting also. As I've mentioned earlier, I think the midis were a great idea, but he didn't follow through - and unfortunately it is inconsistant with the OT...

 

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SithStarSlayer  8619 posts
Registered: Oct '03
40005_Quinlan Vos
Date Posted: 3/10/07 8:46am Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread

LordVader66 posted:
I really don't get what your trying to do here.


Midichlorians are like looking at the label on your food, in that they can be counted as a part of the whole. An unchopped Vader has 20,000 midichlorians in each of his 4 trillion cells. I merely summed it up bodypart by bodypart to illustrate what his pre-Mustafar potential was. The number {{200,000}} is just an example of how we can could tally and equate his subsequent reduction.

Post Mustafar Vader STILL HAS 20,000 midichlorians in all of his remaining cells. With the loss of limbs... he no longer has 4 trillion cells, because the lost limbs had cells that contained midichlorians... thus his potential connection to the Force is diminished.

The fact remains, that Darth Vader still had a strong connection to Force because what was left of him was still saturated with midichlorians. Losing a limb doesn't affect the per-cell-count-of-midichlorians, cellular chemistry was not altered. What is affected, is the TOTAL amount of midichlorians.

Its simple really... loss of a limb = loss of the midichlorians within the cells of that limb. The part of the limb that remains attached to the body still has the exact same number of midichlorians in each remaining cell. I deal with cellular issues on a daily basis, in the form of insulin, carbs and proteins.

What I am really trying to say is that osmosis of midichlorians doesn't happen. One can't lose midichlorians... Vader lost limbs. Plain and simple. Those limbs had midichlorians, so he lost those too. The 20,000 midichlorian count per cell remained unchanged.


And people wonder why I have said all along that midichorians suck rotten eggs...

 

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Arawn_Fenn  10326 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 3/10/07 11:35am Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
darth-sinister posted:
As I've said, it is about the sum whole of the individual. The more Anakin loses of his physical form, the less his connection is to the Force. Regardless of what is left of his body, it's still not as much as it was. You need every square inch of your body, from being like Yoda to being a Wookiee, in order to reach your full potential. Remove one part and there is a diminishing of the whole.


Are you saying that if Yoda clips his toenails, he loses a little power in the Force?

 

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darth-sinister  43577 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Jun '01
24181_Palpatine Hologram
Date Posted: 3/10/07 12:07pm Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
No, but if Palpatine ****** up Yoda the way Obi-wan did to Anakin, he'd be in the same boat.

BTW, the Midichlorians are a measure of power as indicated by Obi-wan's comments to Qui-gon.

OBI-WAN: "Wait a minute..."

QUI-GON: "I need a midi-chlorian count."

OBI-WAN: "All right. I've got it."

QUI-GON: "What are your readings?"

OBI-WAN: "The reading's off the chart... over twenty thousand."

QUI-GON: "That's it then."

OBI-WAN: "Even Master Yoda doesn't have a Midichlorian count that high!"

QUI-GON: "No Jedi has."

OBI-WAN: "What does it mean?"

QUI-GON: "I'm not sure."

Yoda is the measure by which all the Jedi are measured in terms of power. This comes back around in that throughout the PT and into the OT, Anakin is talked about as being a powerful Jedi. Palpatine speaks of Anakin being more powerful than Yoda and Obi-wan telling Anakin that he would rival Yoda, if he trained harder.

The Midichlorians are why the Jedi and Sith are more in tune with the Force than others. The more in tune one is, the greater their ability to use the Force is. Which in other words means, that the more they have, the stronger their connection to the Force is.

 

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came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
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SithStarSlayer  8619 posts
Registered: Oct '03
40005_Quinlan Vos
Date Posted: 3/10/07 4:01pm Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
Exactly.

 

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Master_Starwalker  17414 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Sep '03
47761_Darth Millenial
Date Posted: 3/10/07 4:05pm Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread - Date Edited: 3/10/07 4:07pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Master_Starwalker
darth-sinister posted:
Sinnion posted:
You know I don't think body parts had any effect on your ability to connect with the Force. Sure Vader was rusty physically but I think his ability in the force was even stronger by the OT.


No, that had to do with having his spine being with cybernetics. As well as wearing a forty pound suit with a helmet that restricts movement. Vader was never rusty as he killed a number of Jedi following ROTS to before ANH. "Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader", "Last Of The Jedi", "Purge", "The Dark Times", "In His Image", "The Force Unleashed", "Darth Vader: Extinction" and "Resurrection". So rust was not an issue. His suit and spinal fusion are why. But his power was still not great. He could never become the demigod Palpatine wanted of him. He could never be powerful enough on his own to defeat him. He would always be an inferior product. Damaged goods. A pile of crap on two legs. But Luke could be that.


He's both a pile of crap and more powerful than most Jedi and Sith?

I mean, I'd give OT Vader odds over most of the Jedi Order given that the ones Palpatine so easily dominated were supposedly some of the best, and yet they certainly didn't appear to have 80% of the Emperor's power.

 

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Sinnion  531 posts
Registered: Sep '06
6893_Atari 2600, ESB
Date Posted: 3/10/07 7:04pm Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
DarthSinister posted:

No, that had to do with having his spine being with cybernetics. As well as wearing a forty pound suit with a helmet that restricts movement. Vader was never rusty as he killed a number of Jedi following ROTS to before ANH. "Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader", "Last Of The Jedi", "Purge", "The Dark Times", "In His Image", "The Force Unleashed", "Darth Vader: Extinction" and "Resurrection". So rust was not an issue. His suit and spinal fusion are why. But his power was still not great. He could never become the demigod Palpatine wanted of him. He could never be powerful enough on his own to defeat him. He would always be an inferior product. Damaged goods. A pile of crap on two legs. But Luke could be that.


Well I just don't buy this pile of crap thing people are believing, there's no evidence to it other than a quote George made that I believe was more a suggestion.

Darth Vader had an amazing connection with the force, I believe this. On bespin he projected all those objects towards Luke with quite ease. From what I can see that takes tremendous force ability. He ssaber throws which to my knowledge only other person we see do is Yoda, this also takes a tremendous skill in the force.

Anakin even after all his limbs were cut off and he was being inflamed used hate and the force TO KEEP HIMSELF ALIVE. Very impressive for someone who is now weak and pitiful.



Other than that one Saga was made 16 years later the other I find really no evidence that Vader was weaker in the Force, in fact I believe he's more powerful.

 

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Arawn_Fenn  10326 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 3/10/07 8:36pm Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
Green_Destiny_Sword posted:
none of these mathematical equations even close to making sense. GL screwed the Force up for good with the midis. It's obvious. The 20,000 number was dumb. Even if Anakin lost a limb, he should still be more powerful than any Jedi ever.


Automatically? Or, so to speak, in record time?
The 20,000 number is completely arbitrary. Since the films give us no numerical midichlorian counts for anyone else, any number could have been used. The point is that Anakin's is higher than everyone else's.

QUI-GON
When you learn to quiet your mind,
you will hear them speaking to you.

ANAKIN
I don't understand.

QUI-GON
With time and training, Ani... you
will.

I don't find it likely that Anakin had had enough "time and training" even by ROTS to have maximixed his fullest potential.

 

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Green_Destiny_Sword  4358 posts
Registered: Jun '01
Date Posted: 3/10/07 9:18pm Subject: RE: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
darth-sinister posted:
No, but if Palpatine ****** up Yoda the way Obi-wan did to Anakin, he'd be in the same boat.

BTW, the Midichlorians are a measure of power as indicated by Obi-wan's comments to Qui-gon.

OBI-WAN: "Wait a minute..."

QUI-GON: "I need a midi-chlorian count."

OBI-WAN: "All right. I've got it."

QUI-GON: "What are your readings?"

OBI-WAN: "The reading's off the chart... over twenty thousand."

QUI-GON: "That's it then."

OBI-WAN: "Even Master Yoda doesn't have a Midichlorian count that high!"

QUI-GON: "No Jedi has."

OBI-WAN: "What does it mean?"

QUI-GON: "I'm not sure."

Yoda is the measure by which all the Jedi are measured in terms of power. This comes back around in that throughout the PT and into the OT, Anakin is talked about as being a powerful Jedi. Palpatine speaks of Anakin being more powerful than Yoda and Obi-wan telling Anakin that he would rival Yoda, if he trained harder.

The Midichlorians are why the Jedi and Sith are more in tune with the Force than others. The more in tune one is, the greater their ability to use the Force is. Which in other words means, that the more they have, the stronger their connection to the Force is.



"I'm not sure"


Hmmm....doesn't sound like a definitive statement of Ani's power to me at all. It sounds like he's not sure as to what it means. The bottom lne is that TPM directly defines the midis and Qui Gon said nothing about power at all. he said it's about "hearing" the "will of the force." I hardly see how this translates to the midis being a Force battery.

By Qui Gon's definition, why would a Sith need midis?? A Sith has no interest in hearing the "Will of the Force."

And if they were, Anakin should have been far more powerful than anyone else. And he's not even close. The OT quotes don't really seem persuasive, especially since midis weren't even a part of the films then. At the end of the day it just doesn't wash with much logic at all.

Lastly, if someone wants to argue that the midis gave Anakin "potential" greater than anyone (a famous Anakin defense) well then it just makes the Jedi even dumber that the most powerful Force User ever shows up at their doorstep and they dont even have the sense to know that the Sith are back or that maybe they should pay special attention to him, or that maybe the prophecy is indeed true..etc.

 

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