Author Topic: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
eht13  651 posts
Registered: Sep '07
Date Posted: 6/15 2:03pm Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread - Date Edited: 6/15 2:04pm (1 edits total) Edited By: eht13
From the recent (locked) thread:


TaradosGon posted:
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There was a biological component to it from the very beginning, as the force ran through families and as individuals were naturally strong with the force. It was never established that anybody could become a Jedi
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This is true, and it is a point that is often overlooked when people criticize the concept of midichlorians or the PT's introduction of them...

Luke: "You're wrong, Leia. You have that power too. In time you'll learn to use it as I have. The Force is strong in my family. My father has it... I have it... and... my sister has it."

I used to be less-than-thrilled with the concept of midichlorians because they seemed to take something away from the mystical or spiritual side of the Force, but now I just see them as the biological side to the Force, that does not take away from the other side. And they are NOT the Force itself... they are the biological connection to it that allows some to be "with" the Force more than others. By the way, their real-world counterparts are often considered to be mitochondria.

Anyway, the other reason for their inclusion is that a plot device was needed whereby Qui-Gon could prove that his hunch about Anakin was right, by having a numerical test demonstrate Anakin's biological "gift" towards Force connection.

 

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DuracellEnergizer  363 posts
Registered: Apr '09
14798_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 6/19 4:39pm Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread - Date Edited: 6/19 4:40pm (1 edits total) Edited By: DuracellEnergizer
eht13 posted:
By the way, their real-world counterparts are often considered to be mitochondria.


Maybe they are one and the same. Midichlorian = mitochondrion & vice versa.

As far as I know we can't live without mitochondria, so who knows?

 

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DarthBoba  32897 posts
Registered: Jun '00
8187_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 6/20 10:59am Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
Some facts about mitichondria:



Cells II posted:
Mitochondria contain their own DNA (termed mDNA) and are thought to represent bacteria-like organisms incorporated into eukaryotic cells over 700 million years ago (perhaps even as far back as 1.5 billion years ago). They function as the sites of energy release (following glycolysis in the cytoplasm) and ATP formation (by chemiosmosis). The mitochondrion has been termed the powerhouse of the cell. Mitochondria are bounded by two membranes. The inner membrane folds into a series of cristae, which are the surfaces on which adenosine triphosphate (ATP) is generated. The matrix is the area of the mitochondrion surrounded by the inner mitochondrial membrane. Ribosomes and mitochondrial DNA are found in the matrix. The significance of these features will be discussed below. The structure of mitochondria is shown in Figure 18 and 19.



Cells II posted:
Instead of digesting the smaller organisms the large one and the smaller one entered into a type of symbiosis known as mutualism, wherein both organisms benefit and neither is harmed. The larger organism gained excess ATP provided by the "protomitochondrion" and excess sugar provided by the "protochloroplast", while providing a stable environment and the raw materials the endosymbionts required. This is so strong that now eukaryotic cells cannot survive without mitochondria (likewise photosynthetic eukaryotes cannot survive without chloroplasts), and the endosymbionts can not survive outside their hosts. Nearly all eukaryotes have mitochondria. Mitochondrial division is remarkably similar to the prokaryotic methods that will be studied later in this course.




Genetic Origins posted:
Every human cell has a "second" genome, found in the cell's energy-generating organelle, the mitochondrion. In fact, each mitochondrion has several copies of its own genome, and there are several hundred to several thousand mitochondria per cell. This means that the mitochondrial (mt) genome is highly amplified. While each cell contains only two copies of a given nuclear gene (one on each of the paired chromosomes), there are thousands of copies of a given mt gene per cell. Because of this high copy number, it is possible to obtain a mt DNA type from the equivalent of a single cell's worth of mt DNA. Thus, mt DNA is the genetic system of choice in cases where tissue samples are very old, very small, or badly degraded by heat and humidity.

Under good circumstances - working from fresh cell samples - mt DNA is the easiest human DNA to amplify by PCR. This experiment examines a 440-nucleotide sequence from the noncoding region of mt genome. Hand cycling is a realistic alternative to automated thermal cyclers, and the high yield of amplified product can be visualized in an agarose gel with a variety of stains.

Because each student is amplifying the same region, the gel electrophoresis results will also be the same for each. However, amplified student samples may be submitted to our Sequencing Service, which will generate student mt DNA sequences and post the results on our Sequence Server. Comparison of control region sequences reveals that most people have a unique pattern of single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs). These sequence differences, in turn, are the basis for far-ranging investigations on human DNA diversity and the evolution of hominids.



To sum up:

-mitochondria do make life possible, as eukaryotic cells can't survive without them.

-they vary in number from cell to cell.



So, yes, basically they're midichlorians, besides that everyone is supposed to have the same number of mitochondria per cell, and mitos don't let you throw things around by thinking about it.




 

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DarthIktomi  1380 posts
Registered: May '09
19073_Luke and Mara Family
Date Posted: 6/20 5:54pm Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
eht13 posted:

By the way, their real-world counterparts are often considered to be mitochondria.


Or chloroplasts in plants. The two do opposite things.

There's also now a species called Midichloria mitochondrii, which infects mitochondria. Not lethal, except to the mitochondria.

 

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DarthBoba  32897 posts
Registered: Jun '00
8187_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 6/20 7:20pm Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
And in turn, pretty lethal to you, as mitochondria provide the energy to make your cells run.

 

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T-R-  520 posts
Registered: Aug '03
6596_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 6/21 4:55am Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread - Date Edited: 6/21 5:27am (2 edits total) Edited By: T-R-
posted:
and mitos don't let you throw things around by thinking about it.

Maybe they would if the concentration was high enough hypnotized

Something else in DarthBoba's post got me thiniking about the Anakin loss of potential. It's been argued in many topics across these boards that a being's size or loss of body parts wouldn't change the concentration of midi's in one's cells. While I'll agree that size wouldn't have any affect on concentration, what if loss of body parts does?

Hear me out, because if midis are like mitos then:

"The number of mitochondria in a cell varies widely by organism and tissue type. Many cells have only a single mitochondrion, whereas others can contain several thousand mitochondria."

So, the midi count the Jedi take COULD potentially be an average concentration per cell of a person and not the concentration of every cell. Therefore, the concentration could go down depending on the body part lost. Just a thought.

 

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DarthIktomi  1380 posts
Registered: May '09
19073_Luke and Mara Family
Date Posted: 6/21 4:47pm Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
DarthBoba posted:
And in turn, pretty lethal to you, as mitochondria provide the energy to make your cells run.

Wow, so I'm a female deer tick. I had no idea.

 

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SithStarSlayer  8619 posts
Registered: Oct '03
40005_Quinlan Vos
Date Posted: 6/22 1:05pm Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
Dadgummit.

I was all excited to see this thread moved over here from the Lit, except THIS is NOT THAT thread. I was gonna bust out with best Proxy line: "This(3sa) is where all threads come to die..." Now. Matters are worse.

And thus, my day was ruined.
tongue

PS: Yeah, yeah I know... this hasn't been called the 3sa for years now.
So I guesss that makes me alot like Anakin, since I have such a hard time letting go...

 

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Obi-Chron  2392 posts
Registered: Nov '03
7438_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 6/23 5:26pm Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
I share your pain, Massster Sx3.

My gripe about the whole midis thing is this:
- Master Yoda is quite diminutive, yet the most powerful Jedi
- According to Kenobi on Tatooine, Anakin has a higher midi count than Yoda
- Anakin the Amputee, aka 'Stumpie,' is still considerably bigger than Yoda
- Yoda held his own with Palps, losing by his pointy little finger nails
- Yet Anakin-in-a-can cannot stand toe to toe with Palps

Yes, Palps might somehow control Vader's life support system, as is hinted in the EU. But any good Sith worth his red light saber would work to neutralize his own weaknesses while exploiting those of his master.

Instead (in light of what transpired in the PT), OT Vader was Palpatine's puppy dog on a lease, a love lorn loser who took out his personal frustration on the remaining Jedi during the purge, then choked-out admirals of the fleet for entertainment once he ran out of Jedi scum.

I guess Palps figured out a way to lull Vader's midis to sleep!!!

 

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T-R-  520 posts
Registered: Aug '03
6596_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 6/24 2:50am Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
Well, I think the problem is that we don't know exactly what the count means. Is it the same per cell or is it an average per cell. What appears not to be is a total count where being bigger than Yoda would matter.

We also don't know exactly how the injuries reduced Anakin's potential. Is it simply because he isn't a complete unit, is it because he is more machine than man, do the injuries alterthe midi count, we don't know.

All we know is:
-pre-suit he had more midis than Yoda
-pre-suit he had the potential to be twice as powerful as Palpatine
-in the suit his potential is 80% of Palpatine

 

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Arawn_Fenn  10329 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 6/24 5:21pm Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread - Date Edited: 6/24 5:22pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
T-R- posted:
do the injuries alterthe midi count, we don't know.


They don't.

T-R- posted:
-pre-suit he had more midis than Yoda


The same is true afterwards.

 

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DarthIktomi  1380 posts
Registered: May '09
19073_Luke and Mara Family
Date Posted: 6/24 6:59pm Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
T-R- posted:
So, the midi count the Jedi take COULD potentially be an average concentration per cell of a person and not the concentration of every cell. Therefore, the concentration could go down depending on the body part lost. Just a thought.

It's supposed to be from blood cells, at least from what we saw in the movies.

This leads me to wonder if your theory is correct, how much would a male's midi count in particular fluctuate over his lifespan. If they're like mitochondria, there are more in muscle cells, but very few in sperm cells, so does puberty balance things out?

 

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Arawn_Fenn  10329 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 6/24 7:13pm Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
T-R- posted:
So, the midi count the Jedi take COULD potentially be an average concentration per cell of a person and not the concentration of every cell.


However, Qui-Gon didn't take an average by measuring the concentration in each of Anakin's cells. He took a blood sample. They're basically looking at one blood cell ( a few cells at most ). We don't necessarily need to assume that every cell has the exact same amount, but for the test to be at all meaningful we need to assume that the reading it gets from a blood cell is indicative of the subject's typical cell concentration.

 

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T-R-  520 posts
Registered: Aug '03
6596_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 6/26 3:08am Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
posted:
They don't.

We can assume not, but we don't know for sure because nothing is ever said about count, only that his potential is lower.


posted:
The same is true afterwards.

Again, no evidence one way or another.


posted:
This leads me to wonder if your theory is correct

This isn't really my theory. It is only food for thought on one possibility.


posted:
but for the test to be at all meaningful we need to assume that the reading it gets from a blood cell is indicative of the subject's typical cell concentration.

Correct, although it might be indicative in a proportional relationship way. The blood sample might give a reading of the blood cells which the Jedi can extrapolate a count on based on a known formula.

All I'm saying is that we don't know exactly what the count is. Plain and simple.

 

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Arawn_Fenn  10329 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 6/26 10:05am Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread - Date Edited: 6/26 10:10am (2 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
T-R- posted:
We can assume not, but we don't know for sure because nothing is ever said about count, only that his potential is lower.


By the same token, we can theorize that the malfunction of R5-D4 at the Lars homestead caused Corellia to be sucked into a black hole, or that Yoda is secretly Lando's father. After all, nothing was ever said to the contrary. We don't know for sure. Assuming that the loss of a limb would magically cause midichlorians to somehow migrate out of all undamaged cells elsewhere in the body is similarly indefensible.

T-R- posted:
Correct, although it might be indicative in a proportional relationship way. The blood sample might give a reading of the blood cells which the Jedi can extrapolate a count on based on a known formula.


Except no information was given to Obi-Wan regarding the source of the blood sample.

T-R- posted:
All I'm saying is that we don't know exactly what the count is. Plain and simple.


We do know exactly what the count is. It's a cell concentration. This is explicitly stated by Qui-Gon in TPM and is demonstrated by the blood test. You can't redefine the term "midichlorian count" to mean whatever you want it to.

 

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Believe me, buddy, if I were you, I'd go right up there and ask her if she wants to ride on my rancor." - Han Solo
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