Jedi Council Forums - Midichlorians Discussion

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Author	Topic: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
T-R- Registered: Aug '03	Date Posted: 6/26 12:28pm Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread - Date Edited: 6/26 12:30pm (1 edits total) Edited By: T-R-
	posted: Assuming that the loss of a limb would magically cause midichlorians to somehow migrate out of all undamaged cells elsewhere in the body is similarly indefensible. Not migrate out at all, whoever said that? It would change the average concentration if the tissue affected had a higher concentration than the remaining tissue. What we do KNOW for SURE is that loss of limbs decreases potential and that said potential is related to midi-chlorian count. That can not be debated. posted: Except no information was given to Obi-Wan regarding the source of the blood sample except that it was a blood sample. If there is a known relationship between blood concentration and average total concentration then all you need is the blood concentration and plug it into a formula to find average concentration. That's what a proportional relationship is. posted: We do know exactly what the count is. It's a cell concentration. This is explicitly stated by Qui-Gon in TPM and is demonstrated by the blood test. You can't redefine the term "midichlorian count" to mean whatever you want it to. Yeah we know it's a concentration, but is it straight up concentration of the blood or an average concentration of the entire being? As I said, we don't know for sure which makes it a possibility -----signature----- Anakin Skywalker: Chosen One Luke Skywalker: Son of the Suns Two Prophecies Two Destinies ONE SAGA
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 6/26 3:54pm Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread - Date Edited: 6/26 4:04pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
	T-R- posted: What we do KNOW for SURE is that loss of limbs decreases potential and that said potential is related to midi-chlorian count. That can not be debated. Really? Luke's potential wasn't damaged in TESB, and Anakin's potential wasn't damaged in AOTC. Furthermore, Vader's loss of potential is not about midichlorian count. He has the same midichlorian count - measured in the same way - after Mustafar. T-R- posted: If there is a known relationship between blood concentration and average total concentration then all you need is the blood concentration and plug it into a formula to find average concentration. This supposed formula has nothing to do with loss of limbs. -----signature----- "You're both from strange little backwater planets. You both have odd powers. You're male and she's female. What more do you need? Believe me, buddy, if I were you, I'd go right up there and ask her if she wants to ride on my rancor." - Han Solo
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T-R- Registered: Aug '03	Date Posted: 6/27 4:26am Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
	posted: Really? Luke's potential wasn't damaged in TESB, and Anakin's potential wasn't damaged in AOTC. How do you know their potential wasn't changed after losing their hands? Oh, that's right, you don't Yet we do know that Anakin's was lower after losing his limbs, correct? So, if any assumption is to be made, it is that they lost a small amount of potential due to their injuries - since there is canon evidence that loss of limbs decreases force potential. posted: Furthermore, Vader's loss of potential is not about midichlorian count. He has the same midichlorian count - measured in the same way - after Mustafar Oh really? Show me a quote then because otherwise it is only YOUR speculation. I am not saying it is definitely lower, only that it is a possibility depending on what concentration means. Since there is no explanation of what the concentration represents it is a possibility. posted: This supposed formula has nothing to do with loss of limbs. It would have everything to due with loss of limbs if the cell concentration of midis varied by tissue type - just like the concentration of mitochondria does (their real world counterparts). -----signature----- Anakin Skywalker: Chosen One Luke Skywalker: Son of the Suns Two Prophecies Two Destinies ONE SAGA
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 6/27 11:44am Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread - Date Edited: 6/27 12:10pm (5 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
	T-R- posted: Oh really? Show me a quote then because otherwise it is only YOUR speculation. A midichlorian test is a blood test, and I thought you already agreed that midichlorians don't suddenly migrate out of undamaged cells due to limb loss elsewhere in the body. Thus the conclusion follows. T-R- posted: nothing is ever said about count, only that his potential is lower. Exactly. T-R- posted: It would have everything to due with loss of limbs No, it wouldn't. This supposed "formula" was hypothetically about a "known relationship" between blood concentration and average concentration, and such a "known relationship" would have nothing to do with loss of limbs. -----signature----- "You're both from strange little backwater planets. You both have odd powers. You're male and she's female. What more do you need? Believe me, buddy, if I were you, I'd go right up there and ask her if she wants to ride on my rancor." - Han Solo
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T-R- Registered: Aug '03	Date Posted: 6/28 5:19am Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
	posted: A midichlorian test is a blood test, and I thought you already agreed that midichlorians don't suddenly migrate out of undamaged cells due to limb loss elsewhere in the body. Thus the conclusion follows. I agree that they don't migrate out of cells. That doesn't have to do with concentration though (see below). My request for a quote is to your assertion that Anakin had the same count taken in the same way after Mustafar. Your conclusion is thus a theory because an even more canon based conclusion is that Anakin's concentration is lowered due to his injuries since A.) potential is linked to the concentration of midis one has B.) Anakin lost 60% of his potential due to his injuries Once again, I'm saying this is a possibility, not that it is fact as you do to your theory. posted: Exactly. Exactly. Thanks for realizing this fact, because the fact is nothing is ever said about count so any assumptions you make and claim as fact regarding Anakin's count post injuries cannot be supported by evidence. As shown in the A-B example above, potential is linked to midi count and therefore is is a possibility based on evidence that Anakin's count changed. posted: No, it wouldn't. This supposed "formula" was hypothetically about a "known relationship" between blood concentration and average concentration, and such a "known relationship" would have nothing to do with loss of limbs. You really don't see this do you? If this hypothetical relationship is accurate it would have everything to do with loss of limbs. Analogy time: I'm baking a cake that has 3 different layers. The recipe calls for layer 1 to have one egg, layer 2 to have two eggs, and layer 3 to have three eggs. That is the relationship. The average egg concentration per layer is 2. If I know this relationship and the amount of eggs in any given layer I can tell you the average concentration per layer. Now, someone comes along and knocks off layer 3. The average concentration per layer has been lowered to 1.5 even though the eggs from the remaining layers have not migrated out of their own layers. Each layer maintains its concentration, but the average concentration has gone down. This applies to Anakin if the tissue lost (all the tissue of the limbs and skin due to the severe burns) had a higher concentration than the tissue left undamaged (internal organs). His concentration in his blood wouldn't change but his average concentration would be lowered. So yes, if there is a variable concentration per tissue type (a la mitochondria), average concentration would be affected by loss of tissue. -----signature----- Anakin Skywalker: Chosen One Luke Skywalker: Son of the Suns Two Prophecies Two Destinies ONE SAGA
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 6/28 9:18am Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread - Date Edited: 6/28 9:31am (3 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
	T-R- posted: I agree that they don't migrate out of cells. That doesn't have to do with concentration Midichlorians not migrating out of undamaged cells means that the concentration in those cells remains the same. T-R- posted: My request for a quote is to your assertion that Anakin had the same count taken in the same way after Mustafar. The key phrase here is "taken in the same way". I don't need a quote to prove that if Anakin's undamaged cells have the same midichlorian count as seen in TPM, then a test of a blood cell as seen in TPM would produce the same result. T-R- posted: Anakin lost 60% of his potential due to his injuries Which has nothing to do with midichlorian count. You erroneously assume midichlorian count to be the sole determinant of potential in the Force. Jedi are not B'omarr monks. T-R- posted: If this hypothetical relationship is accurate it would have everything to do with loss of limbs. No, it wouldn't. It was supposedly a "known relationship" between blood concentration and average overall concentration, applicable to the physically whole. That supposed formula would not assume lost body parts ( which the midichlorian test in TPM did not in any way screen for ). In other words your presumed formula is a distraction and doesn't actually help your case. -----signature----- "You're both from strange little backwater planets. You both have odd powers. You're male and she's female. What more do you need? Believe me, buddy, if I were you, I'd go right up there and ask her if she wants to ride on my rancor." - Han Solo
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T-R- Registered: Aug '03	Date Posted: 6/29 3:36am Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread - Date Edited: 6/29 3:38am (2 edits total) Edited By: T-R-
	posted: Midichlorians not migrating out of undamaged cells means that the concentration in those cells remains the same. In those cells, but not in average concentration per cell. Jinn says he has the highest concentration he has ever seen in a life form, not highest he has ever seen in a blood sample. That indicates that he is talking about an average concentration and not just about blood cells. posted: The key phrase here is "taken in the same way". I don't need a quote to prove that if Anakin's undamaged cells have the same midichlorian count as seen in TPM, then a test of a blood cell as seen in TPM would produce the same result. Of his blood but not his average concentration. And you do need a quote when you say he had the same concentration beause he was never tested after the injuries. posted: Which has nothing to do with midichlorian count. You erroneously assume midichlorian count to be the sole determinant of potential in the Force. I don't assume that, we know it as fact. From the movies and from GL himself: "It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different; they have more midi-chlorians in their cells." ?George Lucas, establishing guidelines for the Expanded Universe in 1977 posted: No, it wouldn't. It was supposedly a "known relationship" between blood concentration and average overall concentration, applicable to the physically whole. That supposed formula would not assume lost body parts ( which the midichlorian test in TPM did not in any way screen for ). In other words your presumed formula is a distraction and doesn't actually help your case. Just because you don't understand relationship averages doesn't mean it is a distraction. You can say it wouldn't all you want, but loss of body parts would affect average concentration. The blood test, in and of itself, would apply to the whole. Without info of loss of tissue it would give you the "whole" average concentration. The undamaged concentration and thus undamaged potential. When determining the actual average concentration you would need to know what tissue was lost and percentages to find the actual average concentration. The actual average concentration is what would decrease with loss of body parts and what would affect the actual potential of a force-user. -----signature----- Anakin Skywalker: Chosen One Luke Skywalker: Son of the Suns Two Prophecies Two Destinies ONE SAGA
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 6/29 3:46pm Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread - Date Edited: 6/29 4:08pm (8 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
	T-R- posted: Jinn says he has the highest concentration he has ever seen in a life form, not highest he has ever seen in a blood sample. That indicates that he is talking about an average concentration and not just about blood cells. He took a blood sample to determine this information. That indicates he is talking about the concentration seen in the blood cells. The reason he doesn't say "the highest concentration ever seen in a blood sample" is because that goes without saying. The Jedi are well aware of how midichlorian tests are done. T-R- posted: Of his blood but not his average concentration. The midichlorian test is a blood test. T-R- posted: And you do need a quote when you say he had the same concentration beause he was never tested after the injuries. I don't need a quote to prove that a blood test post-Mustafar would have the same result as a pre-Mustafar blood test, because midichlorians don't migrate out of undamaged cells in response to limb loss. The assumption that he was never retested is irrelevant. T-R- posted: I don't assume that, we know it as fact. No, we don't, you erroneously assume it to be fact. Lucas never said midichlorian count was the sole determinant of Force potential. He said the road to the Force is through the breath. T-R- posted: Just because you don't understand relationship averages doesn't mean it is a distraction. You can say it wouldn't all you want, but loss of body parts would affect average concentration. It's a distraction because a supposed "known relationship" between blood concentration and average overall concentration would not have anything to do with loss of body parts, so attempting to redefine midichlorian testing in this way doesn't help you. Obi-Wan was told absolutely nothing about the physical condition of the source of the blood sample. -----signature----- "You're both from strange little backwater planets. You both have odd powers. You're male and she's female. What more do you need? Believe me, buddy, if I were you, I'd go right up there and ask her if she wants to ride on my rancor." - Han Solo
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EmeraldBlade Registered: Apr '08	Date Posted: 6/30 9:19pm Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
	The Force has a "will" in the same way that genes are "selfish". Basic metaphor. Heredity had already been established in the OT at any rate. -----signature----- I am not Colour Blind, believe it or not. And I can spell, believe it or not.
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zeroskywalker Registered: Sep '09	Date Posted: 9/27 11:39pm Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
	Midichlorians can't be lost, they can be gained with a crystal, even in injury they can't be gone, after a huge injury what is gone is the ability of the force. midichlorians are just the number of how strong the force may become in an individual, but training and knowledge are key to any force users true strength, hence why mace windu is better than obi wan kenobi, that and samuel l jackson is more badass than ewan mcgregor but thats neither here nor there.
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arbed Registered: Feb '04	Date Posted: 10/4 8:50pm Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
	-----signature----- "HELLO, THERE!" 24 fan, Trekker, and Cheesehead "Remember, the Force will be with you....always" - Obi-Wan Kenobi ANH
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SithStarSlayer Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 10/6 9:29am Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
	This is the best thread, EVER. For the sake of argument, lets break Vader down into body parts, and scale it down to one cell per body part and then calculate from there. Head = One Cell = 20,000 midis Torso = One Cell = 20,000 midis 1/2 R.Arm = 1/2 Cell = 10,000 midis L.Arm = One Cell = 20,000 midis R.Leg = One Cell = 20,000 midis L.Leg = One Cell = 20,000 midis Vader's midichorian count is 110,000 for 5 and 1/2 'cells'... We're going macro here, kids. So, for the sake of not putting up a bazillion zeros; due to cell count of each limb, I've simplified the equation. Unsuited Vader on Mustafar, was missing half an arm already so I've accounted for that ahead of time. Now, let's look at Chop-suey Vader Head = One Cell = 20,000 midis Torso = One Cell = 20,000 midis 1/2 R.Arm = 1/2 Cell = 10,000 midis 1/2 L.Arm = 1/2 Cell = 10,000 midis 1/2 R.Leg = 1/2 Cell = 10,000 midis 1/2 L.Leg = 1/2 Cell = 10,000 midis Vader's midichorian TOTAL midi-count is 80,000 based upon reduced body mass... *** Less bodymass, means less midichlorians to work with. The pre-existing concentration levels remain unchanged at 20,000 midis per cell. Losing limbs doesn't actually change cell counts, losing limbs means lost cells... lost bodymass = lost potential. And thus, the total number of midis was decreased due to those lost limbs. -----signature----- Lucas didn't ruin my childhood but he sure wrecked Vader's ^^Foolish men mistake transitory semblance 4 eternal fact^^ o[]\|\|]ooooooooo[0]\|\|[]{ Gal: 5:19-21 Philippians 2:9-11
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eht13 Registered: Sep '07	Date Posted: 10/6 10:26am Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread
	SithStarSlayer posted: Less bodymass, means less midichlorians to work with. The pre-existing concentration levels remain unchanged at 20,000 midis per cell. Losing limbs doesn't actually change cell counts, losing limbs means lost cells... lost bodymass = lost potential. And thus, the total number of midis was decreased due to those lost limbs. Yes. This is what I've been thinking, but never explained this clearly (this has been discussed a little bit in another thread pretty recently, and of course in other older threads too).
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 10/6 3:09pm Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread - Date Edited: 10/6 3:12pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
	SithStarSlayer posted: And thus, the total number of midis was decreased due to those lost limbs. Which is of course a statistic with no actual relevance in canon. -----signature----- "You're both from strange little backwater planets. You both have odd powers. You're male and she's female. What more do you need? Believe me, buddy, if I were you, I'd go right up there and ask her if she wants to ride on my rancor." - Han Solo
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SithStarSlayer Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 10/6 6:39pm Subject: Midichlorians Discussion - The Official Thread - Date Edited: 10/6 6:41pm (1 edits total) Edited By: SithStarSlayer
	Maybe not the actual statistics, but the premise was certainly validated via Novelization. Canon is, as Canon does. -----signature----- Lucas didn't ruin my childhood but he sure wrecked Vader's ^^Foolish men mistake transitory semblance 4 eternal fact^^ o[]\|\|]ooooooooo[0]\|\|[]{ Gal: 5:19-21 Philippians 2:9-11
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