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Topic:
*OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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RebelScum77
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
2/13/06 7:33pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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It's an interesting question, and I don't think we can say for sure either way.
But Anakin turned because he thought doing so would save the people he loves, he did it for "good" reasons. As Hayden has said, he believed he was doing it for the good of the universe, and for his loved ones. Of course this was a very misguided belief, we know that. He turned with Padme still alive, so there's really no reason to believe he wouldn't have done so with his mother still alive. I think eventually it may have given him pause. Arguably the reason he stays with Palpatine post-suit is because he feels like he has nothing left, wife/baby/Jedi/Obi-Wan/mother. If his mother is alive, she being removed from the situation entirely, he may have second thoughts.
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Icestar63
Registered:
Nov '05
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Date Posted:
2/13/06 7:38pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
- Date Edited:
2/13/06 7:41pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Icestar63
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you are right RebelScum77, I never thought of that. 
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SLR
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
2/13/06 9:25pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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I watched the ROTS DVD for the first time yesterday. It was my first viewing of this movie since I saw it in the theaters in May. I think the turn works on screen. Although, I think the turn is rushed, but mainly because Lucas had way too much of the story to tell in this one movie. I really wish Anakin's turn had begun at the end of Ep. II. The turn could have been in the same way: his confusion and fear of losing Padme. This way Ep. III could have focused in more detail his descent and the loss of himself. It could have focused on the dark side enveloping him and consuming whatever good intentions he may have had w/ siding w/ Sidious.
I do think the rationales work. He sides w/ Palps against Mace because he was desperate to find a way to save Padme. You can tell this with the regret he shows immediately after helping Palps kill Mace. He pledges his loyalty to Palps w/ reluctance. He goes and kills the Jedi in the temple (including the younglings) as a misguided pragmatic choice: he needed Palps and his teachings. During this act and the slaughter of the separatist leaders, Anakin begins to try to rationalize his reprehensible acts: the Jedi were traitors, the republic is weak...This rationalization to justify his deplorable acts and the heinous acts he was commiting led the dark side to consume him.
I agree with those who say he never believed in the Sith ideals. He made a misguided decision. He made a deal with the devil and lost everything. He spent the rest of his life blinding himself with rationalization for his evil: he was the victim, the Jedi were bad...
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
2/14/06 8:00am
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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all_2_easy posted:
Why does Anakin still follow palpatine to the dark side when he was lied to off the bat? Palpatine admitted he was lying pretty much right after Anakin was dubbed Darth Vader. He said something to the effect of (and yes, i'm not directly quoting)"oh...by the way. I don't actually know the technique to keep people from dying even though I said I did. But I'm sort of confident we could discover it together." Anakin should have sliced him up right there!!!!!!!!!!! And of course he lied about who he was for so long and he tricked Anakin into aiding him in killing Master Windu.....
Well it's simple, really. Anakin had no choice but to throw his hat into ring with Sidious. After whacking Windu, there was no turning back. The Jedi would never have understood Anakin's selfish and twisted reasoning for what he did to Mace. Anakin believed the Jedi were keeping things from him. Anakin's assumption became a fact in his own mind, when the Council did not afford him the rank of Master.
With the Jedi out of the way, Anakin could gain access to whatever secrets the Jedi Temple held.
Let's not forget how soon Vader was having thoughts of overthrowing Sidious. Vader wanted to rule from the get-go.
As someone else posted, Anakin only wanted Sidious's knowledge and pledged himself accordingly.
Brings new meaning to the line: "You don't know the power of the dark side of the Force..."
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MonkeytheJedi
Registered:
Oct '05
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Date Posted:
2/28/06 4:26pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
- Date Edited:
2/28/06 4:26pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
MonkeytheJedi
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Anakin never really did want to turn to the dark side he just did not want padme to die so then he finds that palps knows how to save ppl from death so then he finds that palp knows the dark side and he idioticly goes and tells windu who then wants to arrest him anakin wants to help but windu does not let him but in the council chambers anakin gets a change of heart and thinks palp knows the dark side but may not be evil so he goes to stop windu from killing palp but there palp lies to him saying the jedi were taking over anikin belives him windu says he's wrong and tries to kill him but anakin stops him and palp gets rid of him so he pledges him self to palp's teachings but only to save padme but later he talks with padme and he says he can over throw the chancellor because now he can save her but than he sees obi and thinks padme betrayed him and brought obi to kill him but he gets so angry he ends up get sliced and burned up and padme loses her will to live because she thinks anakins dead
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Chancellor_Ewok
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
4/18/06 5:02pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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I made an interestong discovery while studying for my Classical Mythology final. The Greek word for Necessity is Ananke and it occured to be that this could be the source of the name Anakin and what I've been wondering is whether or not Anakin's fall was a necessary evil.A though, a question, anyone?
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Dark_Jedi_Kenobi
Title: Manager:
• Prequel Trilogy
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
2/2 5:55pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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Up for recent discussion.
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
2/3 8:33am
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
- Date Edited:
2/3 8:47am (9 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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Well Anakin absolutely had to fall to the dark side for the classic trilogy to work. His getting there was Lucas' problem, lol. Anakin wanted power - the power to save Padme from dying, but also the power to face and defeat anything else that came up (his kids dying, the destruction of R2D2, Obi-Wan dying - anything and everything he loved, he wanted to save, plus his natural compassion made him want to save all kinds of beings, including clones and whatever else). So the bottom line was power and he saw Palpatine as the road to that power. Now he was also a Jedi Knight - and he truly was. ALL Jedi danced with the dark side (Obi-Wan when he killed Darth Maul, Mace trying to kill Palpatine, etc.) - but that did not make them Sith or embracers of the dark force. Lucas says when Anakin firmly decided that he'd crossed the line (unknowingly allowing Palpatine to kill Mace) he knew that there was only one road left - to follow his quest for power. That is when he fell to his knees, made a deal with the devil and became a Sith Lord - albeit with a Jedi Knight buried in his soul.
Anakin immediately knew he wanted to kill Palpatine - he told Padme that at Mustafar. But he needed information first. Anakin seriously felt betrayed by the Jedi in general, for many reasons. Then the ultimate betrayal was Obi-Wan agreeing with them and betraying him with Padme. That sealed it for Anakin. If Obi-Wan had at that point told Anakin he would join him in his quest, all of the fire would have gone from Anakin and I bet Obi-Wan could have redeemed him shortly thereafter because as we all know, there was still good in Anakin - and he hated Palpatine at that point, wanted to wipe him out too. But Obi-Wan elected to 'kill the Sith' which you can't blame him, that was the basis of his training and belief system for his whole life.
So you get the duel. Both Anakin and Obi-Wan allowed their beliefs to overrule their love for one another. Obi-Wan wins, but his beliefs (and I figure his love) did not allow him to go as far as killing the helpless Anakin. In the novel, Anakin makes a plea after the duel, 'Obi-Wan' he calls. But Obi-Wan leaves him in a final act of betrayal (in Anakin's eyes). Then who should come along and play saviour? Sidious - the man who has the knowledge Anakin believes he wants. Despite all that Palpatine has done to him (which Anakin knows now) - and despite the fact that he hated Sidious, and Sidious knows that - he still does all in his power to rescue and save Anakin. Anakin, no matter what else he feels, had to be grateful for that on some level - at least in that moment.
So as Vader, the first thought Anakin has is he will serve under Palpatine - his saviour - the one who despite all, did not betray him by leaving him to die. Thus, completing the final phase of Anakin's downfall. But he is not completely Palpatine's man yet. After calling Sidious "Master" his first desire is to know of Padme. He finds out she is dead and Obi-Wan becomes the greatest betrayer of all in Anakin's mind. And so, Anakin becomes a full fledged Sith with a true hatred for all Jedi in that moment - including (and possibly most of all) the Jedi Knight that still remains within himself.
Vader kills a ton of Jedi, including Obi-Wan and fully supports Palpatine (with some inssurection) but the one Jedi Knight Vader wanted to kill most - he was unable to, the most powerful one of all and the one that would be Vader's undoing. And that Jedi Knight was: Anakin Skywalker.
Ironic.
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DARTH-SMELLY-FEET
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
2/4 8:11am
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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"Don't you wonder why the Jedi Council won't make you a Master?" "They don't trust you." "I would doubt the Council's judgment if they didn't choose you for this mission."
Why is Anakin such an idiot? How does he not see that he is being manipulated?
"You must kill all the Jedi in the temple and then kill everyone in the Mustafar system. Then you will be powerful enough in the dark side to save Padme."
"Okay, do you think that will work?"
"Oh, yes, Anakin. Kill all the Jedi, especially the babies and the children, and you will be able to save Padme's life."
"Wow, it's so simple. Thanks Palps!"
*High Five*
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MasterEric
Registered:
Dec '07
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Date Posted:
2/4 5:12pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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xx_Anakin_xx posted:
Well Anakin absolutely had to fall to the dark side for the classic trilogy to work. His getting there was Lucas' problem, lol. Anakin wanted power - the power to save Padme from dying, but also the power to face and defeat anything else that came up (his kids dying, the destruction of R2D2, Obi-Wan dying - anything and everything he loved, he wanted to save, plus his natural compassion made him want to save all kinds of beings, including clones and whatever else). So the bottom line was power and he saw Palpatine as the road to that power. Now he was also a Jedi Knight - and he truly was. ALL Jedi danced with the dark side (Obi-Wan when he killed Darth Maul, Mace trying to kill Palpatine, etc.) - but that did not make them Sith or embracers of the dark force. Lucas says when Anakin firmly decided that he'd crossed the line (unknowingly allowing Palpatine to kill Mace) he knew that there was only one road left - to follow his quest for power. That is when he fell to his knees, made a deal with the devil and became a Sith Lord - albeit with a Jedi Knight buried in his soul.
Anakin immediately knew he wanted to kill Palpatine - he told Padme that at Mustafar. But he needed information first. Anakin seriously felt betrayed by the Jedi in general, for many reasons. Then the ultimate betrayal was Obi-Wan agreeing with them and betraying him with Padme. That sealed it for Anakin. If Obi-Wan had at that point told Anakin he would join him in his quest, all of the fire would have gone from Anakin and I bet Obi-Wan could have redeemed him shortly thereafter because as we all know, there was still good in Anakin - and he hated Palpatine at that point, wanted to wipe him out too. But Obi-Wan elected to 'kill the Sith' which you can't blame him, that was the basis of his training and belief system for his whole life.
So you get the duel. Both Anakin and Obi-Wan allowed their beliefs to overrule their love for one another. Obi-Wan wins, but his beliefs (and I figure his love) did not allow him to go as far as killing the helpless Anakin. In the novel, Anakin makes a plea after the duel, 'Obi-Wan' he calls. But Obi-Wan leaves him in a final act of betrayal (in Anakin's eyes). Then who should come along and play saviour? Sidious - the man who has the knowledge Anakin believes he wants. Despite all that Palpatine has done to him (which Anakin knows now) - and despite the fact that he hated Sidious, and Sidious knows that - he still does all in his power to rescue and save Anakin. Anakin, no matter what else he feels, had to be grateful for that on some level - at least in that moment.
So as Vader, the first thought Anakin has is he will serve under Palpatine - his saviour - the one who despite all, did not betray him by leaving him to die. Thus, completing the final phase of Anakin's downfall. But he is not completely Palpatine's man yet. After calling Sidious "Master" his first desire is to know of Padme. He finds out she is dead and Obi-Wan becomes the greatest betrayer of all in Anakin's mind. And so, Anakin becomes a full fledged Sith with a true hatred for all Jedi in that moment - including (and possibly most of all) the Jedi Knight that still remains within himself.
Vader kills a ton of Jedi, including Obi-Wan and fully supports Palpatine (with some inssurection) but the one Jedi Knight Vader wanted to kill most - he was unable to, the most powerful one of all and the one that would be Vader's undoing. And that Jedi Knight was: Anakin Skywalker.
Ironic.
That is just a fantastic post. Bravo. 
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
2/4 5:19pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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all_2_easy posted:
Why does Anakin still follow palpatine to the dark side when he was lied to off the bat? Palpatine admitted he was lying pretty much right after Anakin was dubbed Darth Vader. He said something to the effect of (and yes, i'm not directly quoting)"oh...by the way. I don't actually know the technique to keep people from dying even though I said I did. But I'm sort of confident we could discover it together." Anakin should have sliced him up right there!!!!!!!!!!! And of course he lied about who he was for so long and he tricked Anakin into aiding him in killing Master Windu.....
Palpatine's story is still potentially consistent at that point. The idea is that two Sith Lords working together could achieve a power that the one alone could not. This idea was also suggested (indirectly) in Shadows of the Empire.
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
2/6 8:27pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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I just noticed that when Obi-Wan and Anakin were fighting, Anakin says "this is the end for you MY MASTER". He was Vader then...perhaps that should have clued Obi-Wan in that 'there was still good in him' because he could hardly serve two Masters. Granted, we know that conflict of some degree was within Anakin/Vader during his whole life and that there was good in him, and Padme and Luke knew. But I am still thinking it was kind of poor writing to make Obi-Wan, who loved Anakin so much and knew him very well (as a person he knew the anger, conflict, etc), couldn't see past what he felt was betrayal and Anakin's turning to the dark side to the fact that there was good there. Especially since the words Obi-Wan spoke during the fight sounded as if he was actually attempting to make Anakin see the light...at least to some degree. I think that could have been written better. Either make Obi-Wan clueless and full on attempting to defeat a Sith - or as it was, but in the end have him act like someone who knows Anakin better than Yoda or Mace, because that is how he acted in the end.
A much better way for that to have gone would have been for Obi-Wan to run down the incline and try to put out the flames and rescue Anakin, have Sidious arrive and force throw Obi-Wan back into the rocks, knocking him out. That would just make much more sense to me. The way it is, makes Obi-Wan seem dense - which he was not.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
2/6 9:48pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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And why wouldn't Sidious kill the Jedi who has most consistently ruined his plans when he rendered him helpless?
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
2/7 2:14am
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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Master_Starwalker posted:
And why wouldn't Sidious kill the Jedi who has most consistently ruined his plans when he rendered him helpless?
Concern for Anakin and rushing him off to the med center. His future plans were at stake!
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
2/7 11:43am
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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It would have just taken a second to either toss Obi-Wan into the lava or stab him though. And, Vader was no longer critical now that the Sith were victorious and Palpatine had won. He needed an enforcer, but it didn't have to be Anakin.
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