Jedi Council Forums - *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.

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Author	Topic: OFFICIAL THREAD Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
MasterEric Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 2/7/08 2:29pm Subject: RE: OFFICIAL THREAD Anakin's Turn to the Darkside. - Date Edited: 2/7/08 2:32pm (1 edits total) Edited By: MasterEric
	I don't know if I would want to see Obi run down and put out the flames, though I definitely agree he shouldn't have done such a 180 of sorts. He doesn't come off as being Anakin's best friend, simply one who was a friend, and now that Anakin has turned to the dark side, he is dead to Obi-wan and this Darth Vader standing before Obi-wan must be destroyed. He acts like Yoda or Mace would minus the half-hearted dialogue. His attempted reasoning with Anakin before the duel was pretty useless. If he truly wanted to help Anakin or save him he would have made a much more sincere effort. To Master_Skywalker's comments about Sidious not needing Anakin specifically: that might be true, but wasn't a charred, mutilated Anakin still infinitely superior to any other potential apprentices? (at least until Luke came along) I have heard of this 80% of Sidious figure before, if that is true, how many others around would come close to that figure?
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Force-Keeper Registered: Jun '04	Date Posted: 2/7/08 4:24pm Subject: RE: OFFICIAL THREAD Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
	MasterEric posted: He acts like Yoda or Mace would minus the half-hearted dialogue. His attempted reasoning with Anakin before the duel was pretty useless. If he truly wanted to help Anakin or save him he would have made a much more sincere effort. He 'acted' like Yoda or Mace would because that's what needed to be done. I don't think you can get a more sincere effort to try and help Anakin. Since AotC to the end of RotS Obi-Wan tried for so long to give him the guidance to stray away from his feelings and thirst for power that made him turn to the dark side. Because of Anakin's arrogance, Obi-Wans guidance failed, and Anakin chose to take the dark path. So love, friendship, and past aside Obi-Wan had to do what needed to be done, even if it meant Anakin's death (which after he left Anakin to burn to death he thought that had happened). By the way I wouldn't call Obi-Wans "You were like a brother to me" speech half-hearted. That to me was the most heartfelt dialogue in the whole Saga.
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xx_Anakin_xx Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 2/7/08 11:45pm Subject: RE: OFFICIAL THREAD Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
	Force-Keeper posted: MasterEric posted: He acts like Yoda or Mace would minus the half-hearted dialogue. His attempted reasoning with Anakin before the duel was pretty useless. If he truly wanted to help Anakin or save him he would have made a much more sincere effort. He 'acted' like Yoda or Mace would because that's what needed to be done. I don't think you can get a more sincere effort to try and help Anakin. Since AotC to the end of RotS Obi-Wan tried for so long to give him the guidance to stray away from his feelings and thirst for power that made him turn to the dark side. Because of Anakin's arrogance, Obi-Wans guidance failed, and Anakin chose to take the dark path. So love, friendship, and past aside Obi-Wan had to do what needed to be done, even if it meant Anakin's death (which after he left Anakin to burn to death he thought that had happened). By the way I wouldn't call Obi-Wans "You were like a brother to me" speech half-hearted. That to me was the most heartfelt dialogue in the whole Saga. I don't think it was half-hearted either. And I agree that what you said is likely what the audience was suppose to think. But it didn't come across that way. First because Obi-Wan's 'only the Sith speak in absolutes, I'll do what I must' statement - followed by him immediately pulling his saber FIRST - was just too quick on the draw. Anakin, if nothing else, had always been stubborn and his eyes were not flashing yellow at that point, so a loving, brotherly, best friend who wished to save Anakin would have kept talking, not drawn a lightsaber in my opinion. And again when Obi-Wan said, 'Palpatine is evil' and Anakin said 'from my point of view, the Jedi are evil', Obi-Wan says, 'then you are lost' - I was like whaaaaat? They were talking like I'd expect Palpatine and Yoda to be speaking. Obi-Wan didn't act like Anakin could not be turned to the light side again in that moment...other wise why try to talk to him at all? Just fight like he did Dooku. There conversation was simply not written well - nor was Obi-Wan's taking off after the fact. He would "sense" if Anakin was dead in the force, so he must have believed he was dying. A) it is not good to leave a dark lord of the Sith alive and B) with Anakin alive but utterly helpless, there was a way better chance of brining him back to the light. So either way, Obi-Wan should have returned down the incline. But I think it was just poor writing because I do believe we were supposed to believe that Obi-Wan gave it his best to bring his friend back around - it was just written as if Anakin and Yoda were talking - not Obi-Wan who had said only hours before that he could never kill Anakin because he was like his brother and was in deep conflict. -----signature----- I say we put together a 'kill squad' and assassinate Darth Krayt. Who's with me?
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MasterLuke83 Registered: Mar '08	Date Posted: 3/2/08 2:39pm Subject: RE: OFFICIAL THREAD Anakin's Turn to the Darkside. - Date Edited: 3/2/08 2:43pm (3 edits total) Edited By: MasterLuke83
	After the more understandable situation Anakin was in for Episode 2 with his mother being killed and the fantastic entire tatooine sequence in that film, Episode 3 was sort of an area where the character completely lost me at first. I didnt understand his logic, but I did remember afterward about his promise to his mother that he wouldnt fail again. Having said that I think it was intentional for Anakin to have a case of insanity by the end of Episode 3. From his point of view the jedi are evil? I laughed at that line, and found Anakin in this film to be quite young and naive, as he is supposed to be. He doesnt realize this power he seeks that Sidious promises will never ever be found, when a more mature jedi would know it for the nonsense it is. It was odd how Anakin, the anti separatist, would take the news that Palpatine was in leagues with them when he went to kill the separatists. I imagine him shocked when he hears: "Welcome Lord Vader, weve been expecting you." "Lord sidious promised us peace!" I had more reguard for Anakins intelligence when he at least figured out Sidious wasnt the great man he thought since the separatists tried to kill his wife dozens of times probably, and at the end tells Padme he can overthrow him.
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 3/2/08 6:58pm Subject: RE: OFFICIAL THREAD Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
	xx_Anakin_xx posted: - followed by him immediately pulling his saber FIRST - In my opinion that is irrelevant. Igniting a saber is not in itself an attack, nor does it force the other party to attack. -----signature----- "James T. Kirk was a great man... but that was another life."
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DarthApocalypse Registered: Apr '07	Date Posted: 3/2/08 8:17pm Subject: RE: OFFICIAL THREAD Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
	I disagree. Since Obi-Wan had his saber out first he had a decisive advantage over Anakin if their confrontation escalated into violence (which it did). Anakin had to draw his saber to neutralize Obi-Wan's advantage. Drawing your a weapon is a pretty clear indicator of future violence. -----signature----- Don't take life too seriously. Nobody gets out alive.
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DARTH-SMELLY-FEET Registered: Nov '07	Date Posted: 3/4/08 7:46am Subject: RE: OFFICIAL THREAD Anakin's Turn to the Darkside. - Date Edited: 3/4/08 7:48am (1 edits total) Edited By: DARTH-SMELLY-FEET
	"You must kill all the Jedi in the temple and then kill everyone in the Mustafar system. Then you will be powerful enough in the dark side to save Padme." "Okay, do you think that will work?" "Oh, yeah no problem, Anakin. Kill all the Jedi, especially the babies and the children, and you will be able to save Padme's life." "Wow, it's so simple. Thanks Palps!" High Five Give me a break I mean worst turn to the darkside like ever -----signature----- Time is a great teacher, pity it kills all of its students.
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xx_Anakin_xx Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 3/4/08 8:58am Subject: RE: OFFICIAL THREAD Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
	LOL...I agree, the actual turn was poorly done. "What have I done?" "You are fulfilling your destiny - so join up!" "Okay, I pledge my service" Whaaaaaaaat? If there was truly a place in ROTS that George needed to devote more time to, it was this one. The thing is, when he spoke about it later, he said that he knew it was a "hard right jerk" in the movie where the audience might not follow (so why not fix it?) - but he said that if we thought about it, everything was there: Anakin's total loss of faith in the Jedi with respect to doing the right thing; his loss of faith in Palpatine to do the right thing and the relization that both were using him for their own purposes. So he went with his own greedy purpose: power - to save Padme, and whatever else he wanted. That only Palpatine could offer. Getting rid of the Jedi AND Palpatine became his goal, the latter, as soon as he got the power. Then came the betrayal of the two people in the whole world he loved, Padme being the worst of that. I am presuming that was to ensure that Anakin's turn was complete. But it didn't come across very rational to me. Obi-Wan didn't try very hard, said all the wrong things (talking in terms of the galaxy instead of personal) and Padme was useless. Anakin had seemingly gone absolutely nuts in the thrall of the dark side and there you are - a complete poorly executed turn to the dark side. In the end, every single character, AND the Jedi, the Sith...even the force itself take a hit and come out looking bad in order for this turning to occur. I love the movie, don't get me wrong, but I do think they could have cut out a little bit of the earlier frivolty and done the actual turning a little bit better. Instead we are rushed through it as if it was some unstoppable steamrolling effect and everyone seems a little stupid. -----signature----- I say we put together a 'kill squad' and assassinate Darth Krayt. Who's with me?
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Eternity85 Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 3/4/08 9:46am Subject: RE: OFFICIAL THREAD Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
	I agree! It was so bad that i would have prefered not having seen it at all. Love the movie, but when i saw this scene for the first time i just thought.. Ohh man.. George, of all the things, how could you screw up Anakins turn.. -----signature----- " Your eyes can deceive you, do not trust them." - Obi Wan Kenobi
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Strilo Title: Manager: • Music • Prequel Trilogy Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 3/4/08 9:53am Subject: RE: OFFICIAL THREAD Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
	Not that I think Anakin's turn was done perfectly, but seriously... no matter what George did, someone would be saying "George, of all the things, how could you screw up Anakins turn". -----signature----- #1 on iTunes Most Played: The Killers "Human" #1 on iTunes Most Played Scores: Fellowship of the Ring "Bilbo's Ring" ---------- They will not force us. They will stop degrading us. They will not control us. We will be victorious.
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xx_Anakin_xx Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 3/4/08 10:18am Subject: RE: OFFICIAL THREAD Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
	While I agree with you that there is no way to please everyone, that is no excuse to do it so poorly it is almost senseless when seen by the viewing audience. George's TEST audience as a whole told him it was poorly executed and he STILL didn't modify it. According to GL, Anakin walked in there with the intention of doing the right thing. When he cut Mace's arm off, he didn't think Palpatine would kill Mace. When Palpatine attacked and killed Mace, Anakin was stunned into inaction and upon the realization that Mace was dead, Anakin sincerely felt that he'd made so big of an error, he'd completely failed as a Jedi - worse, he was complicit with a Sith. Anakin's road was then narrowed to having Palpatine help him save Padme, or killing Palpatine and allowing Padme to die (in his eyes). So he chose to side with Palpatine for that reason. In addition to all of that, Anakin also felt that the Jedi had used and abused him as much as Palpatine had, but they couldn't and wouldn't help him any longer - Palpy could and would. None of that is clearly conveyed by the movie. If it had of been, then the turning would have seemed much more understandable and realistic. We would have still called Anakin foolish for thinking that Mace being killed spelled his doom because he hadn't meant for it to happen after all - but we didn't even know he was thinking that. -----signature----- I say we put together a 'kill squad' and assassinate Darth Krayt. Who's with me?
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Strilo Title: Manager: • Music • Prequel Trilogy Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 3/4/08 10:23am Subject: RE: OFFICIAL THREAD Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
	Do you have proof about the test audience thing? -----signature----- #1 on iTunes Most Played: The Killers "Human" #1 on iTunes Most Played Scores: Fellowship of the Ring "Bilbo's Ring" ---------- They will not force us. They will stop degrading us. They will not control us. We will be victorious.
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SithStarSlayer Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 3/4/08 10:25am Subject: RE: OFFICIAL THREAD Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
	Its the edits and reshoots that make the turn come across disjointed, choppy... even. But you are right Strilo, even if was different, I'd prolly still complain... unless it was the original turn! The early version of the script had a much better flow to it, and I doubt many would have the same issues that we've seen posted. As far as I understand, the main reason that it was changed was because Lucas was told it was too dark by his directorial buddies. I don't think I'll ever understand how turning to evil should be less evil looking. We already knew Vader was a betrayer and a murderer, Ben told us as much. But whacking kiddies five minutes after drinking the darkside's coolaid was a bit rushed, IMO. In fact, I think that his turn was horribly altered. I think the betrayal; as it was origianlly written, fit the story and the character alot better than what we saw in the final cut. Standing idly by; as a Sith Lord uses your weapon to kill 4 of your former comrades, was some powerful stuff. -----signature----- Lucas didn't ruin my childhood but he sure wrecked Vader's ^^Foolish men mistake transitory semblance 4 eternal fact^^ o[]\|\|]ooooooooo[0]\|\|[]{ Gal: 5:19-21 Philippians 2:9-11
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 3/4/08 10:55am Subject: RE: OFFICIAL THREAD Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
	xx_Anakin_xx posted: - but he said that if we thought about it Well, clearly that's where he went wrong. -----signature----- "James T. Kirk was a great man... but that was another life."
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LemmingLord Registered: Apr '05	Date Posted: 3/4/08 11:17am Subject: RE: OFFICIAL THREAD Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
	Having Anakin kill the younglings at all seems way too out there. Does his betrayal of the Jedi order have to be so hands on? Its almost like the editors don't want to have the long dialog about IF Anakin was turned.. They want to beat Obi Wan over the head with it, "YES he has turned, here's the video.." I would have liked for their to be more subtly to it and for Obi Wan to figure out his friend's betrayal through means that would show him as being more clever. -----signature----- LemmingLord Criticise Me
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